Fence Questions

[QRTRHRS]

The few times that I used a deadman, I just placed a piece of concrete or a large rock in a hold dug into the ground to negate sinking. The tension is towards the ground. Securing to the post depends on the material which in your case is welded pipe?

I use a five foot fence for my mares and geldings. I set an eight foot post three feet into the ground with concrete. For my stallions, I go with a six foot fence and add a foot to the depth of the brace posts, ie; I use a ten foot post.

I do not like diagonal wire bracing for my braces either but I do use it. Usually, I had used tensile which is dangerous to horses especially in loop form. When I built some fence last summer, I used "Hotcote" (coated tensile wire). It was extra work but when I built my braces, I used tensile wire for the diagonals. Later, after all of my runs were in place, I took my scrap pieces of Hotcote and replace the tensile. For the single "H" braces, I used a single wire with crimps securing the bottom and a "Gripple" securing the top. Hotcote wire secures to wooden posts with a screwed on plastic clip or a stapled on piece of plastic tubing. I took the four inch pieces of tubing and slid them over the crimps and excess wire that is required with Gripples.

Reluctantly, I used a loop for my double H braces for the required equal tension. Rather than Gripples which did not secure as well in this instance, I used the ratchet style connectiors. (The coated wire is visable and the horses respect it as though it were hot)

For what it's worth, soild type can go a long way when fencing. I have used pounded PT posts sans concrete for bracing with minimal movement.

 

[exiled]

The first h-brace with the diagonals would be the strongest I'm sure, but also the most expensive.

Brian, I use 45deg diagonals on all my corners. I use the 45deg braces on my h-braces if I did'nt use concret, and just used a true H-brace if I did. You want the 45deg braces in your corners to braceup the top of your corner post from the pull. The top of your corner post has to get its strength from the it's side post at the ground level where its strongest. Sure horizontal bracing might look better and seem to be strong enough when first built but in matter of months you can shake your corner post and might have noticed your fence sagging way before then.
I believe in my H-post every 100' on straight runs. I know thats a drag, and I fenced in 85acres myself by myself. Them 100's come very fast. I tried a couple times to push out to 200' but the fence just would'nt take it. 100' is just the best number for me. Of corse much more than that is really begging around here in N.Al. The land is up and down.
I went about my fence the same way you did. I built the heck out of the frame. Although I used wood. I dont mind running wire but building all those braces takes time and money. My fence has been standing for 10yrs now. I've had to fix a few broken strands, and 2 H-braces in that time. I'm well pleased.

 

[weldingisfun]

Another design I have seen is to have a single h-brace with a deadman, as I have attempted to sketch below. How is the deadman anchored in the ground? Welded to a pipe set in a footing? Set in a 3-4' deep footing as far down as the angle will allow?

Would putting up single h-braces, or a single post with a deadman on both sides (as sketched below), every 330' be adequate? This is the length of the rolls.

This may be what you are looking for. I've seen this design used by the DOT and US Military around their installation perimeter fencing. No deadman used just short pieces, what would have ended up as scrap, set in concrete.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

What I suggest you do first is go for a drive. Look at fences you know have been up for a long time. Try to figure out what has happened with the fence over time.

One of the problems with braces on tensioned fences (if you stretch your fence right it will be under tension) is the corners end up being jacked up or jacked down by their braces. The best way to notice this is to look at the second or third post in a welded brace system. Invariably they will be either raised up while the corner post is pushed down or they will be pushed down and the corner post will be raised up.

The standard H isn't much help for corners. Unless of course you make the H into what is referred to as a box brace. The way a box brace works is the bottom of the brace post is used to push against the top of the corner post. This is accomplished with a twisted wire or turnbuckle method.

I look at it like the brace is a sheet of plywood. When you stand the plywood with the short side up you're putting pressure on the end nearest to the force of pull. When you look at it like that you see those prefabbed welded braces like they sell at TSC and some hardware stores where the uprights are four feet apart aren't worth a flip.

What I would do if I wanted to build a brace for t post fence that would live for a long time I would make a double H. I would have three uprights eight feet apart. I would have two horizontals, one at the top and one at the bottom, again, think of a sheet of plywood.

If your brace post is the fulcrum then the longer the lever, sixteen feet versus eight or four feet then you have to have more strength.

The hiccup in the get up with this is your soil. If you're in dirt then you're at the lower end of design and construction for an effective brace needed. If you're in sandy soil then you're in the middle. If you're in clay then you really need to look at overdoing it being barely enough to get by over time. This is because the clay will expand and contract over the season between wet and dry times. The closest thing to it for the non-clay citizens is frost heave. So you not only have the tension of the fence working against you, you've got the clay doing its darnedest to rid itself of the posts.

When you stretch a woven wire fence you will have tighter and looser horizontals. Even with the newer fabrics where you have everything pre-kinked there will be a difference in the tension. What I use is simple tool. I can take V Mesh which is double horizontal twisted every four inches and run them up and down a grade. When I'm done you won't see the slack strands because I've pulled out the slack. You can go back later as the wire relaxes over time and abuse by the livestock and retension it with the tool.

I'll try to post some pictures of the tool later. Anyone can make it.

 

[briancreed]

wroughtn_harv,

Around here, there are quite a few people who use wooden posts. The problem is, they all seem to rot, warm, or pull out of the ground. I can't find 10' wood posts locally, and I dont think 3.5' is deep enough on a corner post to keep it from pulling.

The highway department uses mainly wood posts with both a horizontal and a diagonal brace, along with a diagonal tension wire. There are a few of their fences that use metal posts, and they all have a diagonal and horizontals top and bottom.

Most of the farms with fences that are old, including the one next to me, use pipe corners. Mainly heavy pipe, with double h-braces.

Recently I was down in Arizona for a Bowl Game. I stopped to take a look at their fences, as they did something we don't see here in Oklahoma. They set a single post, and on both sides had a deadman brace. I don't know if it was because of the amount of rock they had to dig through, or if it's just how they do it there, but their fences looked pretty dadgum tight. That's why I asked about using that inline in the fence, rather than h-braces.

I had originally thought of doing the double h brace, with a diagonal brace in the middle. There is a sketch of what I was thinking in the first post. I will use 8' between the corner post and each brace post (16' total length), with top and bottom horizontals.

I plan on sinking the 4" pipe about 6' in the ground, in concrete, with 2.5" sch 40 cross bars.

I am sinking this into dirt and some rock, not a lot of sand or clay where they'll be going.

I believe I have seen the tool in one of your other posts. I'll go through and refresh my memory on how it's used. I believe I have read most of your fencing threads 20 times at least.

--Brian

 

[exiled]

Around here, there are quite a few people who use wooden posts. The problem is, they all seem to rot, warm, or pull out of the ground. I can't find 10' wood posts locally, and I dont think 3.5' is deep enough on a corner post to keep it from pulling.--Brian

I dont think that 3.5' is deep enough either. Your Lowes or Home Depot does'nt have 10' 4x4 or 6x6's? Can you get your hands on any old railroad ties? Is there any timber being cut around your area? Most times you can get some grat post out of what they leave behind.
I'm not trying to talk you out of metal by no means. On that note I have a fence manual I picked up from Tractor supply. It shows a fence corners being built out of tee post using some kind of lock collors. Might be something to look into. It really did'nt look to hard to do.

 

[briancreed]

I dont think that 3.5' is deep enough either. Your Lowes or Home Depot does'nt have 10' 4x4 or 6x6's? Can you get your hands on any old railroad ties? Is there any timber being cut around your area? Most times you can get some grat post out of what they leave behind.
I'm not trying to talk you out of metal by no means. On that note I have a fence manual I picked up from Tractor supply. It shows a fence corners being built out of tee post using some kind of lock collors. Might be something to look into. It really did'nt look to hard to do.

I can get 4x4 and 6x6 10' locally. 4x4 would not be strong enough for the pulls I'll be doing. The 6x6 would, but I don't want to use wood due to rot. I want my kids and grandkids to stretch off of the same metal corner posts I'll be stretching off of.

The t-posts for corner posts definitely would not work for me. I have used them for temporary fences around gardens, areas where I've worked, etc, and they work for that, but they are definitely not for stretching long distances. I also used 8' t-posts 4' in the ground for my temporary fences, if anybody is thinking of doing this I would recommend the same.

 

[QRTRHRS]

I dont think that 3.5' is deep enough either. Your Lowes or Home Depot does'nt have 10' 4x4 or 6x6's? Can you get your hands on any old railroad ties? Is there any timber being cut around your area? Most times you can get some grat post out of what they leave behind.
I'm not trying to talk you out of metal by no means. On that note I have a fence manual I picked up from Tractor supply. It shows a fence corners being built out of tee post using some kind of lock collors. Might be something to look into. It really did'nt look to hard to do.

You may want to check the retention on any post from Lowes or HD before you shell out your hard earned cash. From what I have seen, they mainly sell above ground or ground contact. Anything below ground is not going to last. I would only use squared posts if I was runing some plank fence for looks. For animals, square corner may cost you in vet bills sooner or later, even if you run some electric inside of them.

Manufacturers can still sell fence posts treated with CCA as opposed to ACQ which is pretty much what you find in squared lumber these days. I happen to have a treatment facility about an hour drive or so away where I can purchase my posts directly. The pricing though gets pretty scary. I would have to run to my file cabinet to dig up my prices but the 8' posts were around the ~12 bucks that most businesses want around me. Not bad for a 6-8" dia. post which are the only size they carry. The 9 footers', ~18 bucks and the 10 footers, ~24 bucks were a bit much IMHO. Funny thing, the 9' were like telephone poles and the 10's were about 5-6" diameters.

 

[briancreed]

Locally, our Lowe's, Home Depot, and other lumberyards carry .40 treated wood. I can order .60 or .80 treated wood, but the cost rises big time.

I am going to stick with the pipe on this fence. It will outlast any of the wood I can put in the ground, is stronger, and the cost is pretty close to being the same.

I believe I am going to go with the double h brace on all corners, with the top and bottom horizontals. I will put in a single post with two deadman braces every 330' (the length of the rolls of field fence). All of my posts will be set in 6'x12" holes, filled to the top with concrete.

T-posts will be set 12' apart, and 6.5' t-posts will be used rather than 6'. They'll stick out 52" above ground level.

I am going to use the Red Brand field fence, as it is available locally. I will run 2 strands of barbless wire behind it for additional strength, and 1 strand of barbed wire above the field fence.

I will run 2 electric wires around the perimiter fence, one on the caps on top of the t-posts, and one approximately 30" from ground level. Not sure on the charger yet.

Gates will be Priefert 2" bull gates for now, and I will probably have gates welded if those don't cut it. Entrance gate will be a custom job, but that's a ways down the road.


Anyone see any flaws in my game plan? I'm gonna be shellin out a lot of dough, so I wanna make sure I do it right.

 

[CTW]

And last but not least, how should I attach the field fence to the corner posts? I've never put it up before, so I have no idea. I was thinking of stretching it tight like barb wire and then wrapping the ends around the post, but not sure how to go about this.

This link on the Redbrand website has a video tutorial on field fence installation as well as other good topics.

http://www.redbrand.com/installation/index.asp

A neighbor down the road a piece installed this type of fence last last year using thick cedar post and t-post with two strands of barbed on top. Real nice looking fence, I'm waiting to see how it wears with his cattle.