Oil & Fuel Anyone use a mask to reduce Diesel fumes?

[westcliffe01]

There is a difference between toxic and oxygen displacing. Nitrogen comprises the greater part of the atmosphere and you inhale it with every breath. When you breath out, your breath has to contain CO2. You will die if the oxygen concentration gets too low. But you would not have been "poisoned" by the nitrogen or CO2.

Hydrocarbons are really bad. So are sulphates. Nitrous oxide has been found to have a far worse effect on lab rats than soot. The nitrous oxide dramatically increases mortality, whereas the soot just made them black... The problem has to do with marketing. Soot is visible. People see it and the technology for removing it was mature earlier than NOx.

Since we got over that hurdle in 1999 in Europe and 2007 here, NOx reduction is the next big thing, starting with your diesel pick up trucks end of this summer. Off road equipment in the 2013 timeframe. So if you want a nice simple diesel engined tractor, you had better wait no longer than next year. After that, it will be common rail injection ecu's and the like. Aftertreatment system the size of the engine. I know, because I designed several of them. The air will be cleaner of course, but our lives more complicated.

Good luck

NONSENSE.

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/models/analysis/biodsl/p02001.pdf

Biodiesel gives incremental reductions in CO, particulates and hydrocarbons, but increase nitrogen oxides. ALL IC engines produce CO, even running on unicorn poop. None have "non toxic" emissions.

The claim is reckless. Run biodiesel in a closed garage and something really, really bad can happen.

 

[rdsaustintx]

There is a difference between toxic and oxygen displacing.

Yeah. And CO is which?

 

[westcliffe01]

CO preferentially bonds to red blood cells (has a stronger bond than O2) and thereby acts as an oxygen "blocker". It is still not a poison, even though it has an impact at lower doses that the other available gasses. You die from the lack of O2, not from an overdose of CO. You could say that CO acts like a catalyst, having an impact disproportionate to its concentration.

 

[rdsaustintx]

You die from the lack of O2, not from an overdose of CO.

Dude, as much as I enjoy semantics...

CO is toxic. That's the word that was used. Breathe enough and you die.

 

[Jon Heron]

NONSENSE.

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/models/analysis/biodsl/p02001.pdf

Biodiesel gives incremental reductions in CO, particulates and hydrocarbons, but increase nitrogen oxides. ALL IC engines produce CO, even running on unicorn poop. None have "non toxic" emissions.

The claim is reckless. Run biodiesel in a closed garage and something really, really bad can happen.

rdsaustintx,
That report has nothing to do with whether or not biodiesel fumes are toxic or not, as its title describes it is a paper on the effects biodiesel on emissions when blended with standard diesel fuel.
There are no hydrocarbons in pure biofuel.
Here is a nice breakdown of that EPA report and how it pertains to actual biodiesel emissions;
Biodiesel Emissions
C0 is not toxic or poisonous, you are breathing it right now... Where does it say that C0 is toxic?
Here is another paper discussing non toxic biodiesel;
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/agrienergy/pdf/biodiesel.pdf
Here is a quote from page 49;

Health & Safety
Pure biodiesel fuels have been tested and found to be nontoxic in animal studies. Emissions from engines using biodiesel fuel have undergone health effects testing in accordance with EPA Tier II requirements for fuel and fuel additive registration. Tier II test results indicate no biologically significant short term effects on the animals studied other than minor effects on lung tissue at high exposure levels.
Biodiesel fuels are biodegradable, which may promote their use in applications where biodegradability is desired (ex:, marine or farm applications). Biodiesel is as safe in handling and storage as petroleum-based diesel fuel.

If this doesn't change your stance then we will have to agree to disagree.
Jon

 

[westcliffe01]

Right. And when you breath in water and drown, that makes it toxic too I guess. It just depends what kind of laymans language you want to use. There are plenty of publications that talk about "poisoning", but they are typically not written by scientists.

Dead is dead in any mans language and there are lots of ways to get there. Call it what you will. A coroners report would typically read "asphyxiation", not "death through poisoning" since the legal definition is quite different.

 

[westcliffe01]

John, there are substantial differences between a raw fuel and the products of its combustion.

For instance, if you set fire to a green forest, it will burn and produce masses of soot, ash, hydrocarbons (that give the smoke its acrid smell and taste), CO and CO2. If you cut down the same forest, season the wood and burn it in a woodstove, the emissions may be reduced by a factor of 98% or more except for the CO2. Prior to burning, the forest would be described as a thing of beauty and a system for sequestering carbon from the atmosphere. So the fuel and the emissions are not so directly related except at the elemental level (like inclusion of sulphur or not) compared to the process by which they are combusted (engine technology).

Achieving a reduction in the level of emitted hydrocarbons of 68% is a good thing, but means that there are still hydrocarbons present and they are still not good for you (just like sniffing glue or gasoline is not). Generally, biodiesel is a much better renewable energy crop that corn ethanol. I just can't get any in southern Michigan.

rdsaustintx,
That report has nothing to do with whether or not biodiesel fumes are toxic or not, as its title describes it is a paper on the effects biodiesel on emissions when blended with standard diesel fuel.
There are no hydrocarbons in pure biofuel.
Here is a nice breakdown of that EPA report and how it pertains to actual biodiesel emissions;
Biodiesel Emissions
C0 is not toxic or poisonous, you are breathing it right now... Where does it say that C0 is toxic?
Here is another paper discussing non toxic biodiesel;
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/agrienergy/pdf/biodiesel.pdf
Here is a quote from page 49;

Health & Safety
Pure biodiesel fuels have been tested and found to be nontoxic in animal studies. Emissions from engines using biodiesel fuel have undergone health effects testing in accordance with EPA Tier II requirements for fuel and fuel additive registration. Tier II test results indicate no biologically significant short term effects on the animals studied other than minor effects on lung tissue at high exposure levels.
Biodiesel fuels are biodegradable, which may promote their use in applications where biodegradability is desired (ex:, marine or farm applications). Biodiesel is as safe in handling and storage as petroleum-based diesel fuel.

If this doesn't change your stance then we will have to agree to disagree.
Jon

 

[rdsaustintx]

That report has nothing to do with whether or not biodiesel fumes are toxic or not

An EPA study listing major emissions by biodiesel fuel content has nothing to do with it?

The graphic YOU posted shows exactly what I said. CO is reduced, but not eliminated. It can NEVER be eliminated in an internal combustion engine. California got that right.

C0 is not toxic

That's plain ridiculous. Do your google search now.

 

[tommyz270]

Ok, so guys, if I'm going to use mine in my crawl space (with a double door I can open), and if I use the type of mask that has the two filers you screw on to the sides, is that safe enough?

Of course I'm going to put a fan pulling the air out, but is that enough? I thought about renting one of those really large fans to pull the exhaust fumes out.

I'm also adding another door on the other side, so I may wait until I get that in - then I can use it in there with both doors open and the fan going....

Thoughts?

 

[rdsaustintx]

Right. And when you breath in water and drown, that makes it toxic too I guess. It just depends what kind of laymans language you want to use. There are plenty of publications that talk about "poisoning", but they are typically not written by scientists.

NONSENSE.

Toxic : containing or being poisonous material especially when capable of causing death or serious debilitation.

Show me one esteemed "expert" reference that doesn't characterize CO as a toxic gas. These may not be sophisticated enough sources for you:

Carbon Monoxide | Indoor Air Quality | US EPA

CDC - Carbon Monoxide Poisoning - Fact Sheet

Carbon Monoxide Poisoning-Topic Overview

Geez, arguing with you is like whipping a puppy. A bad puppy. CO is dangerous as **** and there is no place for denial of that hazard on this site. Safety trumps ego, bud.