School me on the Tombstone

[gwdixon]

OK, here's a story that you can take or discard.

30 years ago I bought a Lincoln AC tombstone. Used it for 10 years with 3/32, 6011 rod. It held everything together and the welds were absolutely ugly - a combination of inexperience and the characteristics of the rod. (A pro welder would likely have no problem.)

20 years ago some hard facing needed to be done and the AC just didn't like it. Put it down in clumps. So a Lincoln AC/DC tombstone was picked up on sale. Once the DC was tried the AC circuit was not used again.

Last year some 5/32 hard facing rod would not burn correctly on the limited DC (125A) on the tombstone. One of the new inverter welders was picked up and the Lincoln AC/DC tombstone joined its AC brother in barn storage. The 200A DC-only inverter was so smooth it was amazing.

Then the 30 year old O/A outfit seemed out of place. So a plasma cutter was purchased. Now the O/A is only used for heating/bending. Plasma is like cutting butter with a knife.

The point is that over the years remarkable improvements have been made in welding technology. While a pro could probably put down a good weld with a lamp cord and a coat hanger, the rest of us can benefit from the advances.

The welder and plasma cutter could be had for right around $1000 if you choose an import. You might even negotiate a deal for the pair.

Mine are from Everlast (as is one of Shield Arc's several) and have performed flawlessly.

 

[lostcause]

if it were me, i'd go for the cheap ac unit. i started with (and still have) an old craftsman ac welder from probably the 60's if i had to guess. it's built numerous trailers for myself and family, along with a lot of repairs to people's farm machinery, trailers, and so on. even all the old ugly welds from back when i had no clue what i was doing (i now have a slight clue at best) are still holding up from that old ac machine.

about 20 years after i started using that welder, i've now stopped using it - i've got a wire feed machine along with a very small stick/tig unit. it's not that i really needed them enough to justify them, but i've come to enjoy fabrication and repair work as a hobby. i've spent too much time behind the desk in my 20 years working so far, and getting out in the shop is my relax time. for me, those other welders and tools are just as much the equivalent of a snowmobile, motorcycle, or atv as they are a tool.

as far as what you can weld with those machines - with the heat turned up the sky's the limit for maximum thickness. just beveling and adding a root gap for those thick pieces. for thinner metals, down to 1/8" isn't any issue, and really, once you get used to the welder, even a little thinner will be possible. i think if you try to get to 1/16 and below, you're probably heading to the area where a different welder would be better, but there are people who can do it. a lot of it will boil down to technique - learning to keep the puddle hot and flowing on thick stuff, and learning to pull out of it and then weave back in to it before it cools too much for thinner stuff.

the best thing about learning to weld with an old ac machine is the cost. you invest $100, and if you find you either don't use it, or decide you really do want more machine, you can usually sell it for close to what you spent. if not, it's only $100, so it's not like you lost your life savings.

 

[jml755]

I agree with the others, AC should be fine for a newbie. I bought my AC Lincoln tombstone used for $70 and that included a helmet and a BIG box of various rods. Basically got the welder for free. Anyway, I wouldn't weld anything that my life depended on yet , but I've been fixing buckets, implements, etc. and it's worked great. BTW, if you don't have one yet, I'd invest in a good 4 1/2" angle grinder. It goes hand in hand with welder use for prep and cleanup. There's been a few things I wasn't happy with after I welded them and ended up cutting off and starting fresh. I think a lot of my problem is getting the current set correctly right off the bat for what I'm working on. For example, I recently tried to use a piece of 1/2" black pipe for a pin guide on an implement and it ended up looking like swiss cheese on my first try. LOL.

As others said, I figure that I can always sell this one for at least what I paid for it if I want to upgrade. I HAVE had trouble with thinner sheet metal (lots of burn through and "bubble gum" welds) so I just switched to brazing that project with my new O/A setup.

But like most things in life, it's practice, practice, practice. The guys in our shop laugh when they see me "dumpster diving" into the scrap steel bin to get stuff to practice on.

 

[BXpanded]

Sorry guys. My approach is different. I'm a believer in getting good stuff to start with. Whether it was a ball glove, a competition water ski or a welder, I've always tried to get equipment that gives me confidence. If I have poor equipment and the undertaking turns out poorly, I'll wonder, "was it me, or the equipment?" I also don't want to try to learn a difficult skill while compensating for inadequate equipment.

If you find welding to be an interesting and useful skill, you'll probably pop for a DC capable unit sometime in the future. Might as well get it to start with and save the hassles. If you decide that rod burnin' just isn't for you, you can resell the AC/DC unit about as easily as an AC only unit.

 

[bearcreek paul]

An old ac works fine and the price can't be beat.Dc just gives you more options,it's all in what you need.

 

[EuropaChris]

An old ac works fine and the price can't be beat.Dc just gives you more options,it's all in what you need.

I started off learning to stick weld on a machine almost like that one - maybe a wee bit newer. It was free - although I had to custom make the lead plugs to fit the sockets on the machine as the standard ones are too small - but that's another story.

I practiced and practiced and got quite decent with it, although it wouldn't run 7018AC worth a hoot. I then ran across a Dayton AC/DC machine (mfg. by Century) for $110 in mint condition on Craigslist. The only time I've plugged the leads into AC is to test it. Otherwise it's been on DC for everything. DC is just a bit more stable and more forgiving with easier arc starts and better stability.

It boils down to how much you think you'll be welding and how much money you have (or have not). There are people who blow $2,000 or way more on welding gear because "they have to have the best", but they couldn't stick two pieces of steel together if they were covered in Crazy Glue. Conversely, give a real welder some old douche-bag dumpster-dive AC buzzbox and he'll lay down welds just as pretty as can be. It's not the machine that does the welding, it's the dude holding the stinger.

Any welder is better than NO welder. Get something you can afford and LEARN all you can. It's fun and satisfying to practice and see how your welds improve over time.

 

[2manyrocks]

If you learn it the right way to start with, you're ahead of the game. Ask around town and find the guy who's a good welder and find out if they'll give you some tips.

I have the AC/DC lincoln--I think it's a good investment to spend the extra if you can find one used at a good price.

 

[rankrank1]

Shield Arc,
...rankrank1
That is some great info! I will look into that. So how do you cut metal? I have a portaband, angle grinder etc. I would really like to not store gas bottles, but unsure the best way to cut a notch out of metal without some form of cutting torch...

I can not justify owning a torch or plasma cutter for my backyard projects as they are simply too expensive for my infrequent needs for them (Actually, I do own a torch, but let my expensive lease on my bottles expire and refused to renew it. Plus gas is too expensive for me. Worst yet acetylene gas is about to go up again as the plant in KY that supplies 75% of the USA with one of the necessary ingredients used to make Acetylene blew up a couple days ago - so my guess is there will be a shortage coming and even higher prices).

Anyway here is what I use to cut metal:
a) 4 1/2" angle grinder with 0.045" thick cut-off disc is my most used cutter. (This tool is great for cutting damaged sections out of something that already exists. Have to be careful using this tool though - and wear a full face shield. For welding you will need a grinder anyway with a grinding disc so might as well make it a multipurpose tool by changing the disc to cut when needed).
b) Electric sawz-all with metal blade (handy for wood projects too).
c) Handheld electric or air die grinder with a 3" diameter fiber zizz wheel installed. (die grinder is also handy for re-shaping worn holes that I have built up with weld to make round again by shaping with a carbide burr tool).
d) Electric jig-saw with metal cutting blade (also useful for wood projects).
e) 6011 rod and the welder. As already mentioned it is possible to cut and pierce holes in metal by using the welder. (This might be the absolute cheapest way to cut metal that exists).
f) Dremel tool with mini-cutoff disc for delicate projects in tight quarters.
g) Electric 14" chop saw with fiber disc (handy for building large projects from scratch, but pretty much useless for repair work on existing pieces. Since I do more repairs than fab work I could easily get by without this tool and simply freehand cut with the 4 1/2" angle grinder if I had to).
h) old school man powered hack-saw.
i) I also have an old junky 7 1/4" skil circualr saw for wood that I sometimes use too with a 7" fiber disc for metal. Saw is an extra that I do not care about.

I use whatever method is required to get the job done as speed is rarely a necessity in my backyard hobby shop. I simply try to use whatever method is easiest on me and cheapest from the consumables perspective.

 

[SpringHollow]

If you are patient, you can pick up a AC/DC for around $120. The DC made welding much easier.

Ken

 

[gabeancounter]

Guys this is some great info! I really enjoy hearing everyones perspective.

I normally put a number to anything I am doing in life. So with welding I placed a budget of $500 to try out. My thoughts were to spend $100 on a HF lid, pair of gloves, and jacket. Around $400 on a machine. This was leading me towards a 140 MIG machine.

But after reading everyones comments from prior post I decided that a 120V machine would not be the best for all the 1/4 metal I have laying around. This has led me back to old faithful- tombstone. Not wanting to make the price jump from the 120V to 240V mig machines.

I researched the powerarc 200 and that seems to be a pretty good deal! My only fear is I can not test a used unit. I think I may pickup a really cheap flux 100 or 125 amp mig and a unit like the powerarc.

Rankrank,
Thanks for the tips on cutting. I have most of the items you mentioned so I will give this a shot.

 

[richamor]

With a $500.00 budget, you could get a Lincoln AC225 and a Lincoln flux core wire welder for your smaller stuff. Gloves, shield, sleeves, etc aren't that expensive unless you go for those auto-dark shield (which I am not a fan of).

 

[grsthegreat]

unless you go for those auto-dark shield (which I am not a fan of).

the auto darkening hood is the single greatest piece of welding equipment i ever purchased. It has improved my meager welding skills tremendously. No more constant flipping hood up and down.

you'll never pry that hood out of my hands...never i tell you :laughing:

 

[gabeancounter]

Yes, I am certian I will purchase one of the auto darking hoods. I remember the only welding I did back in high school trying to shake my head to get it to flop down right and start my arc etc. Not that coordinated or just need a lot more practice.:laughing:

 

[andrec999]

I was going to purchase a Thumbstone at Canadian Tire ( Canadian equivalent to Lowes) this week as they bare on sale at 289.$ but after reading the posts I am more confused than ever , cause there alot of different opinions here.

 

[JB4310]

If you are patient, you can pick up a AC/DC for around $120. The DC made welding much easier.

Ken

Yes patience will be needed, I got super lucky though, the first day I seriously looked for an AC/DC machine, I found one on craigslist for a great deal on a nearly brand new machine. A miller Thunderbolt.

But since then I have not seen any AC/DC machines except expensive gas powered portables, great deals on the portables but still expensive.

I have turned down free AC welders as I didn't need another, one was a brand new Tombstone sitting in a ladies garage, her husband bought it and never used it. Gave my AC away as well, so it shouldn't be hard finding an AC for a good deal.

the auto darkening hood is the single greatest piece of welding equipment i ever purchased. It has improved my meager welding skills tremendously. No more constant flipping hood up and down.

you'll never pry that hood out of my hands...never i tell you :laughing:

Yes, I am certian I will purchase one of the auto darking hoods. I remember the only welding I did back in high school trying to shake my head to get it to flop down right and start my arc etc. Not that coordinated or just need a lot more practice.:laughing:

I don't know if I'd call an auto darkening helmet the greatest pc of welding equipment, but it does make things a little easier, one less thing to have to think about. For me I wont go back, I delayed getting one until just last year, now I definitely do appreciate it.

JB

 

[Shield Arc]

I researched the powerarc 200 and that seems to be a pretty good deal! My only fear is I can not test a used unit. I think I may pickup a really cheap flux 100 or 125 amp mig and a unit like the powerarc.

If you buy the PowerArc 200, don't waste your money on a 120-volt flux core wire feeder!

Far as the PowerArc 200, now that is one slick little machine! Most likely the best $300 + you'll spend on welding equipment.

 

[gabeancounter]

I was going to purchase a Thumbstone at Canadian Tire ( Canadian equivalent to Lowes) this week as they bare on sale at 289.$ but after reading the posts I am more confused than ever , cause there alot of different opinions here.

I am in the same boat. lol. Every post I read I change my mind.

This afternoon I was positive I wanted a cheap Northern tool 125 amp mig and a lincoln 225, but I am sure I will change my mind in the morning. The $289 is a standard price for the lincoln 225 machine at Home Depot.

Shield Arc,
You think the powerarc can do the light gauge materials as well?

 

[gwdixon]

Shield Arc is a good guy to ask about thin material. But remember that he is a pro and can weld things that "normal" folks can't.

I have used 1/16" 6013 with the PowerArc 200 on thin stuff without a problem. Other than it is a pain to get the amps just right to melt just right. That is a weldor problem rather than a welder problem.

 

[rankrank1]

I am in the same boat. lol. Every post I read I change my mind.

This afternoon I was positive I wanted a cheap Northern tool 125 amp mig and a lincoln 225, but I am sure I will change my mind in the morning. The $289 is a standard price for the lincoln 225 machine at Home Depot.

I would not buy a brand new AC225, as you can find way too many used ones for a third the price or less of a new one. These things a darn near indestructable and your kids will be using this same welder as there is just so little to go wrong on an AC power unit. If it works when you buy it chances are it will continue working for decades to come. Even if you decide you want a better welder later you will be able to easily sell it to recoup your minimal investment - it will never depreciate. Plus, AC is the one area that works best with the Carbon Arc torch anyway so it is worth having for that alone.

Mig is not a bad idea either for thinner metals as a novice can weld much thinner metal with mig, but I would skip the Northern tool and go with an affordable 120 volt Hobart or Lincoln. I myself would buy the Mig unit new as there is much more to go wrong in a mig. (I myself have a Lincoln SP-135). Realistically though, 24 gauge to 1/8" metal as the normal easy working range of a 120 volt unit, 3/16" metal can be done with some beveling and multiple passes, and 1/4" or bigger can be done in a pinch too with beveling and several passes. Mig does not like rusty metal at all. Mig will not work outside either as your shielding gas get blown away. You can switch to gasless flux core and not use gas but then you can not weld as thin as metal with flux core and flux core is terrible for use in autobody work - makes the paint bubble. Going to a 220 volt mig will cost more, but does add thicker metal to the mix.

 

[grsthegreat]

I'm just a so-so self taught welder that used to have a cheap AC welder, and my welds looked like it. they held, but were ugly.

I broke down about 16 years ago and bought an ac/dc with reverse polarity unit...it wasn't cheap but man, my welds sure improved ... without me doing anything.

Ive actually Had a professional welder friend of mine tell me that my welds do look very good. Nothing has ever split apart.

Mind you, id never trust my welds on a trailer frame, but here around the ranch they are fine.