Dog vs. cat vs. cops

   / Dog vs. cat vs. cops #41  
Ah but there is a difference in both examples in whether there was a valid reason for the action. that is where the black/white police viewpoint tends to fail.

Harry K

Agreed. Mitigating circumstances need to be considered. I'd have done the same thing if a neighbor's dog was attacking an animal I liked, and I'd hope that the police would understand. If they didn't, I'd hope the judge understood. If he didn't I'd just have to suck it up and deal with the consequences. I chose the action. I chose the consequence.

There's a cat or two that hangs around my house poaching food off my recently acquired kittens. I've asked around and none of my neighbors claim them. Those cats may come up missing.
 
   / Dog vs. cat vs. cops #42  
Interesting discussion.

I don't think I would criticize the police for charging her. After all, she did discharge a firearm in the city, contrary to local law. She should be charged. The cops don't get to decide that point; a judge does.

The fact that the city's attorney chose to drop the charges indicates he didn't think he could get a conviction, or at least not without some significant expense (both money and political).
 
   / Dog vs. cat vs. cops #43  
I'm danged sure I would have had lots of concerns :laughing:

However, that doesn't mean I couldn't have defended myself with pepper spray, or something besides a gun. I realize I am being a bit picky here, but I thought the case raises interesting points about our attitudes towards firearms; whether you agree or disagree with my comments. I don't think there is a 'right' answer by the way.

As a young'un I had occasion to witness a training session for a "coon dawg". The animal being trained was a 4 month old pit bull and the training target was a raccoon in a small steel wire cage. The lesson plan was to allow the dog to smell the raccoon and agitate the dog into an aggressive state while keeping the raccoon in the dog's field of vision and filling the dog's nose with it's scent to fixate the dog on the raccoon as the source of it's frustration. This will associate the raccoon with the frustration in the dog's mind and initiate a chase impulse when the scent is encountered again.

The lesson seemed to work very well. The dog was able to force his head through the heavy wire cage and proceeded to maul the raccoon despite having two pieces of wire piercing his eye and neck and four men trying to pull the cage and the dog apart. Neither animal survived the training session that day.

Dave, I am convinced that if a piece of 12ga wire poking into it's eye did not deter this dog from attacking then a few cans of military grade pepper spray would not either and I can't easily obtain military grade anything. Just a thought. When confronted with a lethal grade weapon, I will turn to a lethal grade defense.
 
   / Dog vs. cat vs. cops #44  
I am not much of a cat person, but if that were my cat, the dog would probably be just as dead. As far as the police getting involved over a well placed justified shooting, well that is where this country is headed, with too many laws and too many officers of the law using the law to promote laws they can't or haven't yet passed.
As far as the "idiots in Florida"comment, well, from what I heard, 10 of them were from NC and the other was on vacation from Detroit. A true Floridian would be pulling the handle on "Old Sparkey", not sending her off to hide.
David from jax
 
   / Dog vs. cat vs. cops #45  
As a young'un I had occasion to witness a training session for a "coon dawg". The animal being trained was a 4 month old pit bull and the training target was a raccoon in a small steel wire cage. The lesson plan was to allow the dog to smell the raccoon and agitate the dog into an aggressive state while keeping the raccoon in the dog's field of vision and filling the dog's nose with it's scent to fixate the dog on the raccoon as the source of it's frustration. This will associate the raccoon with the frustration in the dog's mind and initiate a chase impulse when the scent is encountered again.

The lesson seemed to work very well. The dog was able to force his head through the heavy wire cage and proceeded to maul the raccoon despite having two pieces of wire piercing his eye and neck and four men trying to pull the cage and the dog apart. Neither animal survived the training session that day.

Dave, I am convinced that if a piece of 12ga wire poking into it's eye did not deter this dog from attacking then a few cans of military grade pepper spray would not either and I can't easily obtain military grade anything. Just a thought. When confronted with a lethal grade weapon, I will turn to a lethal grade defense.

How about a meat clever swung well onto the back of the neck? That's pretty lethal, but would take considerable force to get through the hair, maybe more than the average person could do. People do manage to get results where guns are not as prevalent as here, so it is possible. Of course, your story is a testament to the nature of some dog breeds too. If you had that on video and showed it to people looking for a pet dog, how many would choose that breed?

As I said earlier, I might have done the same as the cat owner. I liked this post from IPlayFarmer:

Agreed. Mitigating circumstances need to be considered. I'd have done the same thing if a neighbor's dog was attacking an animal I liked, and I'd hope that the police would understand. If they didn't, I'd hope the judge understood. If he didn't I'd just have to suck it up and deal with the consequences. I chose the action. I chose the consequence.

I also agree with IPlayFarmer about the chances that the gun user is competent. I think I would choose to have restrictions on gun use in built-up areas than to take the approach that I will rely on the competence of whoever may have a gun handy. If there were a citizen's muster for firearms training on a monthly basis, I might feel differently.

I'm glad the DA did not press charges, he had discretion and used it no matter his motives. If he felt the use was justified, fine, if he was dodging potential heat from the public, also fine. That's the way it is supposed to work, up to a point at least.

The police should not be deciding that for the DA, a law was broken, a person was cited. They were doing their job.

How would you feel if the story ended differently? Maybe the bullet glances off the dog's skull and hits a neighbor kid who has run over to see the commotion, or the dog owner's foot. Then what? Isn't that a reasonable example for the for restrictions on firearms discharges in populated areas, or within so many feet of a road, house, etc.? How many gun owners would be willingly to swear that no accident will ever occur as a result of their choices?

It's a good discussion. It's also good to remember that any of us could petition a city, town or county to amend local gun laws such that the police would not have had cause to issue a citation in this case. It will be decided by a majority; meaning there will be an unhappy minority. That is democracy in action; some percentage of the population is ticked-off about something 100% of the time. :laughing:
Dave.
 
   / Dog vs. cat vs. cops #46  
Judging from the miriad candid shapshots that abound on the internet, It's obvious that few people consider what is in the background before they shoot a picture. I'm sure it would be the same for shooting a bullet.
 
   / Dog vs. cat vs. cops #47  
Judging from the miriad candid shapshots that abound on the internet, It's obvious that few people consider what is in the background before they shoot a picture. I'm sure it would be the same for shooting a bullet.

That is a valid point...and doesn't apply just to civilians. Shooting while under stress doesn't make for good aiming.
As a gun owner (and I do carry a handgun), I know that if I need to defend myself, the range is likely to be well under 10 feet. Even at that short range, shots can go wild (try it sometime...set up a man sized target 10 feet away, draw your pistol and (without aiming) fire off 5 rounds or so).
 
   / Dog vs. cat vs. cops
  • Thread Starter
#48  
That is a valid point...and doesn't apply just to civilians. Shooting while under stress doesn't make for good aiming.
As a gun owner (and I do carry a handgun), I know that if I need to defend myself, the range is likely to be well under 10 feet. Even at that short range, shots can go wild (try it sometime...set up a man sized target 10 feet away, draw your pistol and (without aiming) fire off 5 rounds or so).

"Without aiming...."??? Roy, I am somewhat confused, obviously if you DON'T aim, your shots will go wild. Are you saying that the second your firearm clears the holster you should begin pulling the trigger? For those trained, aiming should be second nature.
 
   / Dog vs. cat vs. cops #49  
"Without aiming...."??? Roy, I am somewhat confused, obviously if you DON'T aim, your shots will go wild. Are you saying that the second your firearm clears the holster you should begin pulling the trigger? For those trained, aiming should be second nature.

In a self defense situation, JD, you're not going to have time to aim. This is when practicing point shooting comes in to play. Your assailant is likely no more then 10 feet from you...and you, if like most of us, aren't going to be cool and calm when someone is rapidly approaching with some type of weapon.
In this lady's case, her cat was being killed and she was, very likely, in a panic situation (to her, her cat may have been her best friend, child...what have you). How do you think you'd react? How well would you shoot?

Back to point shooting. This is a good thing to learn if you carry a firearm for self defense. When I was practicing (and much to my chagrin, I don't shoot much anymore). The gun is drawn rapidly and fired, normally about waist level, pointing at the central mass (trunk of the "assailant"). Initially, my rounds went very low.
There's some good reading about point shooting on the internet. here's a starting point:
http://www.bobtuley.com/pointshooting.htm
 
   / Dog vs. cat vs. cops #50  
Interesting discussion.

I don't think I would criticize the police for charging her. After all, she did discharge a firearm in the city, contrary to local law. She should be charged. The cops don't get to decide that point; a judge does.

The fact that the city's attorney chose to drop the charges indicates he didn't think he could get a conviction, or at least not without some significant expense (both money and political).
what comes first self defense or discharging a gun ?
 

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