Generators - Backfeeding - 120V

[Car Doc]

I just bought a used Winco 25k pto generator mounted on a trailer I have it here at the shop. My buddy who I bought it from is an electrical contractor and has the switch to hook it into my shop.

I haven't seen the switch yet he is coming over to instal it as soon as I can shut the power down for an hour so hopefully later this week.

I have no idea what kind it is etc but with all this info on this thread I sure feel somewhat educated on what to expect from a real generator hook up that will be a nice addition to my property. :thumbsup:

 

[pilot-werx]

No the best (or worst if you want) was at a restaurant in Seattle's airport. There was a southwest pilot eating in the next booth talking to another pilot. Discussing safety issues . As usual i butted in and said that it didn't matter whose airline you flew...they were all maintained the same.
He then told me " How much maintenance do you think your $99 air fair paid for"

Sobering thought.

That really puts things into perspective and that is why I have not flown commercial in the last 30 years. Yeah, the king air is slow and my turbine beaver is slower, but I get there when I plan to get there, bring whatever I want, and do not wait on the ramp.... And I never have some wing-nut TSA person rummaging through my stuff...

In regards to the generator, do us all a favor and buy a transfer switch. We do not any more Darwin awards for stupidity...

 

[grsthegreat]

That really puts things into perspective and that is why I have not flown commercial in the last 30 years. Yeah, the king air is slow and my turbine beaver is slower, but I get there when I plan to get there, bring whatever I want, and do not wait on the ramp.... And I never have some wing-nut TSA person rummaging through my stuff...

In regards to the generator, do us all a favor and buy a transfer switch. We do not any more Darwin awards for stupidity...

yup.. i used to fly my piper turbo arrow IV all around Calif when i lived there. Best thing to go on hunting trips with. Was cheap back in the 80's, and could land on small airports instead of the large commercial crap. Sometimes i do miss that freedom, but considering the cost of avgas and what a wet rental would cost.....i guess its back to Southwest for me.

 

[RPW]

There is alot of interesting information thrown out here which is good. To the OP here's my take and I know you already have your problem solved but bear with me. Through some of the box stores, through northern tool there is a small transfer switch rated for 30A. Minor wiring on your box to select which circuits you want to run from your generator. And the good part is they're not very expensive. I've seen them advertised for around $80US. This would make a simple and "legal" method of getting power that you need.

Good luck.

 

[bubbacuse77]

For those of us with larger PTO gen sets that can power the entire house, does anyone know of where a guy can get a reasonably priced 200Amp manual transfer switch?

 

[Travelover]

For those of us with larger PTO gen sets that can power the entire house, does anyone know of where a guy can get a reasonably priced 200Amp manual transfer switch?

Depending on your location, you might have luck on Craigslist. I see them in SE Michigan fairly regularly.

GE 200 Amp Xfer Switch

 

[JB4310]

For those of us with larger PTO gen sets that can power the entire house, does anyone know of where a guy can get a reasonably priced 200Amp manual transfer switch?

Harbor Freight has one, I wasn't to impressed with the quality but it does cost a lot lot less than a domestic version.

At least 1 TBNer has it and had no issues to complain about.

Searching for it I can't find it, only 100 amp, but I saw it myself and there is alot of Internet chatter about them. they say it's a Cutler Hammer, which is a respectable name.

200 Amp Transfer Switch - Harbor Freight Tools

JB

 

[aczlan]

For those of us with larger PTO gen sets that can power the entire house, does anyone know of where a guy can get a reasonably priced 200Amp manual transfer switch?

Watch Craigslist. There is one for $125 near me.
I am debating whether to get it (or a similar one) or to replace the breaker panel (older GE with a vertical main breaker) with a newer one.

Aaron Z

 

[JB4310]

Watch Craigslist. There is one for $125 near me.
I am debating whether to get it (or a similar one) or to replace the breaker panel (older GE with a vertical main breaker) with a newer one.

Aaron Z

Also called a double throw switch (if you're searching for info), here's what a good quality domestic version costs.

General Electric TC35364 Double Throw Switch 200A NIB Manual Transfer Switch | eBay

This is a 3 pole, which means it disconnects the neutral as well. Most are only 2 pole, not sure how much of an advantage the 3 is.

Notice how simple the inside is, you can see whats going on. I like this style better than the one I saw at harbour freight, which had more moving parts and was not so easy to see the actual disconnect.

The boxes are huge, bigger than your whole panel but I guess they need all those cubic inches for arc protection ???

I always wanted one of these myself, my panel has no main breaker so I would need it, but for those with a main breaker, an interlock makes these expensive switches obsolete IMO.

JB

 

[wrooster]

He then told me "How much maintenance do you think your $99 air fair paid for"
Sobering thought.

That really puts things into perspective and that is why I have not flown commercial in the last 30 years.

LoL.

You guys are funny. I hope you don't own cars.

-- Vietnam war KIA/MIA, 1966 to 1972: ~40,000.
-- US highway deaths, every year: ~40,000.
(aside: also note about 3.2 million injuries requiring hospitalization.)
-- General aviation deaths, 2009: 471.
-- Commercial aviation deaths, in 2009: 52.

The accident rate for GA is 7.2 per 100K flight hours, compared with .17 per 100K flight hours with commercial aviation -- hence you are 40 times less likely to be involved in an accident while flying commercial.

20 year historical data...
Deaths per billion passenger-kilometres:
Air: 0.05
Bus: 0.4
Rail: 0.6
Car: 3.1
Bicycle: 44.6
Motorcycle: 108.9

Summary:
Statistically, you are far, far safer while on board a commercial aviation flight than you are actually driving to the airport.

Safety

Wrooster

 

[grsthegreat]

LoL.

You guys are funny. I hope you don't own cars.

Naa... never owned a car. I own TRUCKS.....

 

[Qapla]

...The accident rate for GA is 7.2 per 100K flight hours...

Why have stats for Georgia and not any other states?

:laughing:

 

[pilot-werx]

LoL.

You guys are funny. I hope you don't own cars.

-- Vietnam war KIA/MIA, 1966 to 1972: ~40,000.
-- US highway deaths, every year: ~40,000.
(aside: also note about 3.2 million injuries requiring hospitalization.)
-- General aviation deaths, 2009: 471.
-- Commercial aviation deaths, in 2009: 52.

The accident rate for GA is 7.2 per 100K flight hours, compared with .17 per 100K flight hours with commercial aviation -- hence you are 40 times less likely to be involved in an accident while flying commercial.

20 year historical data...
Deaths per billion passenger-kilometres:
Air: 0.05
Bus: 0.4
Rail: 0.6
Car: 3.1
Bicycle: 44.6
Motorcycle: 108.9

Summary:
Statistically, you are far, far safer while on board a commercial aviation flight than you are actually driving to the airport.

Safety

Wrooster

Own many cars but cannot stand driving... I am not afraid to admit that my wife drives most of the time and i will catch up on work... Put it this way, I commute to work in a MD 500 that I bought at a govt auction for less than what you guys are paying for new trucks...

And not to challenge the above numbers, but how many GA deaths occur from pilot error? Remember, there are old pilots and bold pilots, but no bold old pilots.

 

[wrooster]

Why have stats for Georgia and not any other states?
:laughing:

It's a commonly used abbreviation for "General Aviation" -- meaning small, privately owned aircraft.

Wrooster

 

[redcentinela]

Talking about 120v backfeeding, make sure you use a small genset, generally less than 5k . Preferably an inverter type, less noise and less gas consumption.

Old school used generally used interlocking devices, backfeeded through a drier or kitchen outlet , used a 220v at the breaker box. In case of having a 120v genset and wanted to feed both panel busses, they generally made a jumper, not at the breaker panel, but on the suicide cord or at the genset outlet.
Not rocket science.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Sorry. I did not read all the posts.

Easily done with a 110/220 transformer of appropriate capacity. Generators LOVE driving into a transformer anyway!

For years, I had a PTO genset. I had big ugly booster cable type clamps that I clamped into a splitter box after throwing the main switch. Something out of a Frankenstein movie. I prefer (and now have) a 200 amp automatic transfer switch, but the old way was definitely more exciting!

 

[Redneck in training]

The utility that supplies power to our house installs a "tombstone" with a manual switch together with every transformer. The switch has three positions:
1.) House connected to utility and disconnected from auxiliary power.
2.) House disconnected from utility and from auxiliary power.
3.) House connected to auxiliary power and disconnected from utility.

It is not automatic but it is reliable and simple.

 

[sparc]

I've heard about this and I agree it sounds like a great idea. But I THINK it's only available thru the utility companies that participate in that approach.

I have not heard of it being available from our utility company.

JB

Been a long time but I thought I would answer the concerns above.

First off it is over 10 years later and this thing is still working just fine whenever we have a power outage and I need to fire up the generator. It makes it so easy.

I can't speak for how other utilities operate, but my electric utility did not even know of the Generlink when I approached them about it. Here's how it went down:

I was working in NY when I heard about the Generlink from a co-worker. I looked them up on the web and got the details. They advised contacting your utility to see if they allowed the use of the Generlink.

So I did call, and they knew nothing about it, so I educated them and gave them the contact information for Generlink.

Their response a week later was that I could buy the equipment but since they had never seen it before they wanted to test it before installation.

So I paid the $650 (~10 years ago) for the Generlink with the optional whole house surge protector built in and had it shipped to my house.

Once I received it I contacted the Engineer at the utility and arranged to get the Generlink to him. They then did some testing to verify the internal isolation switch and whatever else they needed to know. It passed all their tests.

A week after I gave them the Generlink they contacted me and arranged to come to my house and return the unit to me.

They removed the meter, installed the Generlink on the meter socket, and reinstalled the meter. They installed a lock collar to secure the Generlink to the meter socket so it could not be removed and used their normal seal on the meter to lock it to the Generlink. All of this took about 10 minutes.

I paid nothing for an electrician, no additional hardware or equipment needed, no permit from the township, and no inspection required. Why? Because the utility did all the work. So my total cost was what I paid for the Generlink which came with a 30 foot cord to connect to my Generator.

I was the very first person in my utilities' service area to get a Generlink. Do you know who the second person was? It was the Engineer who did the testing of my Generlink before it was installed. The day they did the install he told me he had ordered one for himself. The third person to get one was my Brother-in-law. I have no idea if anyone has one but is has worked for me. And if I ever move I can take it with me.

 

[jwinner]

I guess the original poster is long gone, but I’ve been working on backfeeding a week ago so this thread is pertinent. I am using one of those “lockout” brackets that only allows the generator breaker or the main to be on at any one time, not both. I was doing it manually, but decided it was easy to make it legal. Cheap and easy to install - not sure if an electrician was supposed to do it, oh well . Feeding from a 50amp 240v inlet plug on the outside of the house.

Related to the original question, I have both a 120v and a 240v generator. If we just want to run some lights, coffeemaker, etc I rigged up a special jumper cord for my 120v generator that takes the 120v and feeds it to both sides of the 240v inlet plug. That way I can feed any 120v circuit in the house on either leg. My little gen is a Honda eu2200i, so no worry about overloading the neutral. If I need more power, my inlet is wired for 240v for the big generator - so with this setup I have tons of flexibility. I just have the added responsibility of proper load management with this, but I enjoy figuring that stuff out.

 

[Travelover]

I guess the original poster is long gone, but I’ve been working on backfeeding a week ago so this thread is pertinent. I am using one of those “lockout” brackets that only allows the generator breaker or the main to be on at any one time, not both. I was doing it manually, but decided it was easy to make it legal. Cheap and easy to install - not sure if an electrician was supposed to do it, oh well . Feeding from a 50amp 240v inlet plug on the outside of the house.

Related to the original question, I have both a 120v and a 240v generator. If we just want to run some lights, coffeemaker, etc I rigged up a special jumper cord for my 120v generator that takes the 120v and feeds it to both sides of the 240v inlet plug. That way I can feed any 120v circuit in the house on either leg. My little gen is a Honda eu2200i, so no worry about overloading the neutral. If I need more power, my inlet is wired for 240v for the big generator - so with this setup I have tons of flexibility. I just have the added responsibility of proper load management with this, but I enjoy figuring that stuff out.

I do the same. Just need to watch the loads.