That's pretty neat!
I'm considering having a solar panel electrical system installed.
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That's pretty neat!
Look I'm trying to show people that alternate energy is viable by what I've done, that all the hype, bad info and nonsense is doing everyone a disservice.
What happened to all the hard work and ingenuity that built this country? We've turned into a bunch of nay sayers sitting on our soft couches dithering our lives away watching ball games. We're so afraid of change that we will spout anything that supports our stagnation while oil companies feed us pabulum about how renewables don't work and we're all better off paying so much for oil that we can't breath.
Last year we lost power for a week, life went on for us without a hitch. Who here wouldn't want that freedom? Who here wouldn't like to stop the oil companies and their lobbies from strangling this country?
I just checked my intertie meter, my intertie is producing over 3.5KWH right now, for those of you who don't understand what that means use this as a reference:
One HP = 746 watts that means I'm making over 5 HP and it's slightly overcast here!
Rob
What happened to all the hard work and ingenuity that built this country? We've turned into a bunch of nay sayers sitting on our soft couches dithering our lives away watching ball games. We're so afraid of change that we will spout anything that supports our stagnation while oil companies feed us pabulum about how renewables don't work and we're all better off paying so much for oil that we can't breath.
Last year we lost power for a week, life went on for us without a hitch. Who here wouldn't want that freedom? Who here wouldn't like to stop the oil companies and their lobbies from strangling this country?
I just checked my intertie meter, my intertie is producing over 3.5KWH right now, for those of you who don't understand what that means use this as a reference:
One HP = 746 watts that means I'm making over 5 HP and it's slightly overcast here!
Rob
NorTracNY
Platinum Member
Hopefully the OP will clarify his question soon.
Some very good post. Before putting in any energy system; PV, wood burning stove, wind, solar water, geo thermal, etc. you should first look at your energy needs. Insulation in the house, inefficient appliances, etc. are almost always cheaper to tackle.
Very good points also have been mentioned on people spending tons of money on items that are not necessities without being ridiculed like someone looking into an alternative energy. Rob-D, nice points.
For me, I've looked at solar, wind, geothermal, solar hot water over the last 8-9 years. Solar PV finally makes sense for us. The price has dropped, rebates & credits have increased, and now NY allows leasing. I'd suggest anyone in NY to look at solar. The leasing is right for us, I'm told the numbers don't work out for everyone. We are spending just a few thousand to have all of our electricity needs paid for for AT LEAST 20 years. We will conservatively save over 10K and more likely closer to 20K.
I've been told that off-grid still doesn't make sense financially. The batteries are pretty expensive, and some of the rebates only apply to grid connected systems.
Some very good post. Before putting in any energy system; PV, wood burning stove, wind, solar water, geo thermal, etc. you should first look at your energy needs. Insulation in the house, inefficient appliances, etc. are almost always cheaper to tackle.
Very good points also have been mentioned on people spending tons of money on items that are not necessities without being ridiculed like someone looking into an alternative energy. Rob-D, nice points.
For me, I've looked at solar, wind, geothermal, solar hot water over the last 8-9 years. Solar PV finally makes sense for us. The price has dropped, rebates & credits have increased, and now NY allows leasing. I'd suggest anyone in NY to look at solar. The leasing is right for us, I'm told the numbers don't work out for everyone. We are spending just a few thousand to have all of our electricity needs paid for for AT LEAST 20 years. We will conservatively save over 10K and more likely closer to 20K.
I've been told that off-grid still doesn't make sense financially. The batteries are pretty expensive, and some of the rebates only apply to grid connected systems.
Thanks.
And I notice you're in Western NY, not the best sun place on the planet for sun but still, like me in the Catskills, you can see a real benefit.
I think people have to put aside their preconceived ideas and start to look at renewables without the previous biases, they do work and are viable.
Assess your needs, do some unbiased reading and then decide. A solar panel recovers the energy used to construct it in one year, after that you get 29+ years of clean beneficial energy. As fuel costs rise the payback gets shorter. Who here think fuel costs are going to drop back to a buck a gallon?
Rob
BoFuller
Veteran Member
I'm going with an off-grid system on my ranch because I have to (no power for miles), and because I want to be ready for total self-sustained living.
Yes, solar panels have come way down in price and are a lot more efficient, but it is still expensive.
Personally, I think you get more people interested by showing what you can do, and encouraging them to take little steps, not by telling them how ignorant they are.
Your co-op thing sounds like a sweet deal, but for most of us, the payback period is huge, and on the average, the average Joe cannot produce electricity for anything close to what the grid can. I am 100% for alternative energy, and I'm doing what I can, but you might back off the in-your-face attitude if you are really interested in getting others to participate.
My 2 cents
Yes, solar panels have come way down in price and are a lot more efficient, but it is still expensive.
Personally, I think you get more people interested by showing what you can do, and encouraging them to take little steps, not by telling them how ignorant they are.
Your co-op thing sounds like a sweet deal, but for most of us, the payback period is huge, and on the average, the average Joe cannot produce electricity for anything close to what the grid can. I am 100% for alternative energy, and I'm doing what I can, but you might back off the in-your-face attitude if you are really interested in getting others to participate.
My 2 cents
LD1
Epic Contributor
Rod-D: Not everyone has the ability to get a free intertie system. In fact, I have never heard that until now.
If my electric company offered it, I'd have it in a heartbeat. After all, its free right:thumbsup: But that 6.4k intertie that you got free would cost most of us 50-60k+. And THAT just doesnt justify due to long cost of payback.
I have looked at solar SEVERAL times, and ALWAYS come to the same conclusion as grsthegreat and dmccarty, payback times are TOO long.
In their example of $6/watt installed:
with my 0.11/kwh electric, $6 would buy me ~55000 watts of electricity. "assuming" 100% efficcency and "assuming" 12 hours of charge/day, it would take 4646 days to pay back. Thats 12.7 years:confused2: And thats also assuming the pannels dont start to degrade or need replaced before then.
Thats why it just dont make sense to me. The payback needs to be 5 years or less for me to really consider it.
But heck, if my electric company ever comes up to me and says "hey, well install this system free of charge for you, AND never bill you again" of course I'd say yes.
If my electric company offered it, I'd have it in a heartbeat. After all, its free right:thumbsup: But that 6.4k intertie that you got free would cost most of us 50-60k+. And THAT just doesnt justify due to long cost of payback.
I have looked at solar SEVERAL times, and ALWAYS come to the same conclusion as grsthegreat and dmccarty, payback times are TOO long.
In their example of $6/watt installed:
with my 0.11/kwh electric, $6 would buy me ~55000 watts of electricity. "assuming" 100% efficcency and "assuming" 12 hours of charge/day, it would take 4646 days to pay back. Thats 12.7 years:confused2: And thats also assuming the pannels dont start to degrade or need replaced before then.
Thats why it just dont make sense to me. The payback needs to be 5 years or less for me to really consider it.
But heck, if my electric company ever comes up to me and says "hey, well install this system free of charge for you, AND never bill you again" of course I'd say yes.
Thanks Bo,
First, I'm not calling people ignorant but I am saying there is a lot of ignorance and misguided thinking about alternate energy out there.
You're late to these debates, I have been showing people that renewables are possible by what I have done, it's not theory it's actually being done successfully and not only by me. When this basic debate started many threads ago people were bashing CFL's because they thought they were a liberal ploy. I've pretty much ended that silliness and now that LEDs are in the wings to take over from CFL's things will only get better for high efficiency lighting.
There are people who get on every alternate energy thread and shake their heads no but they know very little about the subject and aren't off the grid or intertied.
I get pm's from the ones really interested in what can be done and I've helped a lot of people get started both in my local area and on the net so it's not really accurate to say I'm not helping or not helping as much as I could if I sugar coated my statements.
I won't let the nay sayers spread bad info. I'm all ears if someone has valid info but just parroting some talk show host who couldn't find a flat on a unicycle won't cut it.
If you noticed this thread started with a simple inquiry and then the nay sayer took over. That's not what the poster asked for. You'll also notice that I addressed his question.
I like the idea that you,re thinking about autonomy, that's how I started too!
Rob
BoFuller
Veteran Member
Okay, not knowing the history is probably enough to offer my apologies. I do most of my solar talking on a solar forum, where many have made it work. But for most people, it is WAY more expensive to create your own than to have the grid.
But when the SHTF one of these days, I will be self-sustaining and one the very few that have power. :thumbsup:
But when the SHTF one of these days, I will be self-sustaining and one the very few that have power. :thumbsup:
NorTracNY
Platinum Member
This is just a good example of everyone is different in their investments. I'd have said yes for a 12.7years. The panels are guaranteed for 20 years and often last 30+. The inverters are what last 15-25years, but I'm told they are getting better. Because of NY allowing leasing my return went from 15 years to less than 8. Also almost ALL risk was removed since the system and the production are guaranteed for the 20 years.
Well it won't cost 50 or 60k, it will cost 30 to 42k minus 30% from the gov and whatever other incentives your state gives. Now your half of your estimate depending on how many installers are in your area and what they get a watt. In my area (Upstate NY) the local installer gets $7.50 a watt complete, turnkey.
I think that's very high, I can buy all the components for a system for under$3.00 a watt, actually well under that using US panels. My 6.4KW intertie ran around 19.5K if I remember, I put it in myself, with the grant from the coop it would have cost me about 22K more to do the system through him but why give an installer 22K for a few days work? Let me also say that I didn't cut corners on the parts, all the stuff I used is top shelf, SolarEdge MPPT's on each panel and top notch panels, not China made.
OK, so I'm an electronic engineer and I do have a degree of expertise but I'll tell you that a good solar supplier can pretty much walk you through the process and there's plenty of help on the net. In fact the tedious work was in getting the paper work in for the grant because I had to do diagrams of the layout and use exact steps to satisfy my coop. Hey, for a free setup I did it. I'm not the only one I have a friend in the village who got an incentive from NYSEG, not the coop, to put in panels and she was so happy she added more panels last year. So grants and incentives are out there, you have to do a little digging maybe but you can get them and let's not forget the 30% payback from Uncle Sam. If you'rewaiting for someone to come up and hold your hand you have a long wait, you ahve to go find it.
But let's talk about cost. My panels are giving me free energy, I don't care what happens to energy cost, in fact if prices go up I make more on my sale back to the coop. Are you betting prices of energy will drop? Because I'm betting they will rise and the more they rise the better for the guy who took the solar plunge.
My off grid system wasn't done in a year. The first year I bought the batteries, one inverter and 8 panels (about 10k cost wise). A couple of years later I added the second inverter. Now I'm adding panels, I have about 15k out of pocket, the gov. gives me back 5k and the new panels I,m buying are all I need to buy now. The inverters, MPPT's, hubs and batteries are all in place and all I'm doing is adding panels and mounts. So for 5k I'll probably triple my power, add my DIY microhydro and wind and my heat bill goes away. Now the time it takes to recoup my investment is quite short.
So you're probably saying, "Hey I can't put it in myself." but that won't get you anywhere, you'll have to start thinking outside the box because the benefits are there, hey I got them so can you or anyone else.
Now PV is ridiculously cheap, in fact my dealer just called the other day and said prices on the panels I was looking at dropped 10 cents a watt. So who's saying they can't afford a $1.50 or less a watt with 30% back? I have a 3320 that cost more than my whole system. My car costs more too. I see people buying 60" TV's saying I can't afford PV. Look down the road at all the 30, 40 and 50 grand cars and trucks going by. Who's kidding who?
All this is if the grid never fails, if it does fail and that's not impossible, the people who have a system will have gold and payback won't even enter the conversation.
Rob
