Buying Advice need advice for new kubota

[PHILIP8N]

Art, back it up! The example I gave above are both liquid cooled and as close to apples to apples as I think you will find. Philip.

 

[kiotiken]

Lets try to compare apples to apples. Both Kubota engines. Both naturally aspirated. Both nearly same displacement.

Kubota WG972-G-E3 gasoline engine. 962cc. 32.5 peak hp @ 3600 rpm. 55 peak ft-lb @ 2300 rpm.

Kubota D1005-E3B diesel engine. 1001cc. 24.8 peak hp @ 3600 rpm. 41 peak ft-lb @ 2400 rpm.

Fact, same displacement, gasoline makes more torque and horsepower. Peaks are about same rpm.

You have to add a turbo to make a diesel a torque monster.

Philip/

I'm not sure which of my apples you consider an orange.

I also disagree with your numbers. Although I don't have the specs on the Kubota diesel engine you're quoting, here are the specs for the Kubota D1105-E3B.

1119 cc
24.8 hp @ 3000 rpm
53.1 lb-ft torque max @ 2200 rpm

now, I'm not sure who runs their tractor at 3000 rpm, personally, I'm between 2000 and 2200 rpm, which puts me in the max torque range. For this Kubota engine it also means the hp rating would be about 21 hp according to the power chart. So 21hp with 53 lb-ft torque. and that's in line with the numbers Kioti is putting out for my 30 hp engine.

For the gas engine, lets try comparing one that's a little closer to the diesel.

WG752-G-E3
741 cc
24.5 hp @ 3600 rpm
41.3 lb-ft torque max @ 2500 rpm

Again, most people run gas engines wide open, I know I do on my Ferris IS3000 mower. At 3600 rpm, the gas engine is doing 34 lb-ft torque.

So under normal use these two engines are

Diesel: 21 hp and 53 lb-ft torque
Gas: 24.5 hp and 34 lb-ft torque

http://www.kubotaengine.com/products/pdf_en/09_d1105_30.pdf
http://www.kubotaengine.com/products/pdf_en/wg752_g_e3_ol.pdf

 

[PHILIP8N]

Here are the engine spec sheets to back up my data. Philip.

 

[UWAdventurer]

We had a 25HP Craftsman Garden Tractor with a large mowing deck (don't remember the size) , got rid of it and got a BX1500 w/54" MMM. The BX1500 would work circles around the Craftsman tractor. Traded the BX1500 for a BX1860 w/54"MMM for the wife. She says the BX1860 is more comfortable and she is happier with its performance. We have some hills to mow and she said the 1500 would run out of power, she says the 1860 does not. We have liked all our Kubotas, the diesel definately better than a gasoline engine for economy also.

 

[sd124]

Ok everyone, thanks for all the good advice and feedback. Now down to the purchase. I have decided to go with the bx2360 60"MMM and front mounted blower with hydraulic rotating chute. Price quoted from dealer is $15,000 any thoughts?

 

[kiotiken]

Ok everyone, thanks for all the good advice and feedback. Now down to the purchase. I have decided to go with the bx2360 60"MMM and front mounted blower with hydraulic rotating chute. Price quoted from dealer is $15,000 any thoughts?

Well, out of respect that this is a Kubota forum, I've refrained from talking about anything other than diesel vs gas engines, but, since you've asked...

I think $15K is a lot of money for a little tractor. Before I get yelled at, I'm saying little, not bad and maybe little is what you want and need, but you could get a whole lot more tractor for that kind of money.

I was convinced I was buying a new kubota to replace my JD. I really only shopped the other brands to satisfy myself that I wasn't jumping into something blind and had done my homework. I found that the world has more than (Kubota) orange and JD green.

Before spending that much money, go look at a Kioti CK20 or Bobcat CT122 (exact same tractor except for the loader). If you don't have either around, look at McCormick or Landini (I don't know their model #, but again, same tractor, different FEL (FEL = Front End Loader) and color. You'll find they are small compact tractors, 22hp (roughly the same as the BX2360), have almost twice the loader capacity (assuming you're getting one, Kioti/Bobcat have a free loader program), weigh almost double without the loader and the Kioti version will have 4 years of warranty. You'll also get features usually reserved for the bigger more luxury line tractors. For a tractor, weight = traction, it also means there's a lot more metal in the Kioti with larger, stronger frames, axles etc. I don't do any damage to my lawn with my 6500lbs TBL (tractor, loader, backhoe) with loaded R4 industrial tires.

After you've looked at those, look at everything else from JD, Case, Mahindra, LS, New Holland (made by LS) etc. In the end, the Kubota BX2360 may be perfect and the one for you, and that's great. Don't spend that much money without looking at EVERY option first.

 

[dodge man]

Phillip8n, I think if you looked at torque curves at lower RPM's, this is where you will find a diesel outperforms a similar gas engine. When you overload a gas engine, say when mowing grass that is too long and your going to fast, it will drag down, get below its torque peak, and start to die out. With a diesel engine, it will drag down also, but still have good torque and continue to lug along and not die out as easy.

Look at the torque of both a gas engine and diesel engine at say 1500 rpm, and this is where a diesel will outperform a gasser.

From personal experience, I had a gas mower, about 700 or 750cc in size, 25 hp, 54" mower deck. I now have a Kubota, 900cc engine size, 25 hp, 60" mower deck. There is just no comparision between the two, the diesel pulls much better, but it is also a larger displacement to make the same horsepower.

The truth is, its tough to compare a diesel and gas engines, its the proverbial apples to oranges comparision.

 

[crazyal]

Ok everyone, thanks for all the good advice and feedback. Now down to the purchase. I have decided to go with the bx2360 60"MMM and front mounted blower with hydraulic rotating chute. Price quoted from dealer is $15,000 any thoughts?

If you go to Kubota's website they have a "build my tractor". You can go through it and add in each option and it will give you the retail price. 10% off or more is a pretty good price. I quickly went through it and it looks like you're getting about 15% off, if so that would be a very good price. You can make a few calls to other dealers.

 

[crazyal]

We are comparing a B&S or Kohler air cooled (possibly single cylinder) gas engine in a riding mower to a liquid cooled Kubota Diesel in a BX tractor.

 

[PHILIP8N]

I think if you looked at torque curves at lower RPM's, this is where you will find a diesel outperforms a similar gas engine. When you overload a gas engine, say when mowing grass that is too long and your going to fast, it will drag down, get below its torque peak, and start to die out. With a diesel engine, it will drag down also, but still have good torque and continue to lug along and not die out as easy.

Look at the torque of both a gas engine and diesel engine at say 1500 rpm, and this is where a diesel will outperform a gasser.

From personal experience, I had a gas mower, about 700 or 750cc in size, 25 hp, 54" mower deck. I now have a Kubota, 900cc engine size, 25 hp, 60" mower deck. There is just no comparision between the two, the diesel pulls much better, but it is also a larger displacement to make the same horsepower.

The truth is, its tough to compare a diesel and gas engines, its the proverbial apples to oranges comparision.

It is hard to compare, but the turbo is what gives diesel torque such a good name. For the same cc engine, look at the peak torque. Gasoline is 2300 rpm, diesel is 2400 rpm, nearly the same rpm level. For a diesel to make more torque, I have to go to a larger displacment than the same cc gasoline I am comparing it to, or add a turbo. Then yes, I will have more torque. In this size engine, who cares what the torque is at 1500 rpm? You are well below your peak torque, so you better slow down or cut your grass more often. My 540 pto speed is at 2650 engine rpm. When I mow my rpm's will not drop more than 200 rpm. If you are lugging down to 1500 rpm you are doing something wrong. I am not anti-diesel. I love them. I own 2, and work with diesel engines everyday from 4.5 liter 173 hp to 32 liter 800 hp. Just trying to make a point that for everyone who owns a 300hp 600ft-lb turbo diesel in thier 3/4 ton pickup truck, that the torque curve on a little naturally aspirated Kubota is much different. Philip.

 

[wrooster]

We are comparing a B&S or Kohler air cooled (possibly single cylinder) gas engine in a riding mower to a liquid cooled Kubota Diesel in a BX tractor.

Reading -- it's fundamental! :laughing:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-buying-pricing/241070-need-advice-new-kubota-2.html#post2806330

Wrooster

 

[wrooster]

I'm not sure which of my apples you consider an orange.

now, I'm not sure who runs their tractor at 3000 rpm, personally, I'm between 2000 and 2200 rpm, which puts me in the max torque range.

Oranges and apples. :confused2:

From page 1 of this thread,

ps:
Please keep in mind the OP is considering a BX-series tractor. This is a clue.

Wrooster

 

[wrooster]

Before spending that much money, go look at a Kioti CK20 or Bobcat CT122 (exact same tractor except for the loader). If you don't have either around, look at McCormick or Landini (I don't know their model #, but again, same tractor, different FEL (FEL = Front End Loader) and color. You'll find they are small compact tractors, 22hp (roughly the same as the BX2360), have almost twice the loader capacity (assuming you're getting one, Kioti/Bobcat have a free loader program), weigh almost double without the loader and the Kioti version will have 4 years of warranty. You'll also get features usually reserved for the bigger more luxury line tractors. For a tractor, weight = traction, it also means there's a lot more metal in the Kioti with larger, stronger frames, axles etc. I don't do any damage to my lawn with my 6500lbs TBL (tractor, loader, backhoe) with loaded R4 industrial tires

A big, heavy tractor with huge FEL capacity. That type of tractor must be exactly what the OP was looking for.

Let's review...

I have 3 acres with a 24'x100' concrete driveway. I am currently using a white gt2550 25hp gas with a 54" deck to cut the grass and have an ahrens 11hp walk behind snowthrower. I am considering a kubota bx1860 diesel with blower attachment. I know very little about diesels. I'm sure that the kubota will more than handle what I need it for, but am I gaining or losing going with the 18hp diesel vs the 25hp gas? I also looked at the simplicity legacy xl, and jd x700 series. I don't know if I'll ever need the 3 point hitch or a fel but at least I'll be able to. I'm also considering the bx2360 with a 60" deck. Does the addtional cost out weigh the larger deck and hp? Like I stated earlier I will primarily be using it to cut grass, and snowblowing.

In summary:
OP wants to cut 3 acres of grass and perhaps snowblow in the future.
OP is not sure he will ever need a FEL or even a TPH.

You recommend a big, heavy tractor with a huge FEL capacity.

Yup, exactly what he was looking for. :thumbsup:

Wrooster

 

[art]

It is hard to compare, but the turbo is what gives diesel torque such a good name. For the same cc engine, look at the peak torque. Gasoline is 2300 rpm, diesel is 2400 rpm, nearly the same rpm level. For a diesel to make more torque, I have to go to a larger displacment than the same cc gasoline I am comparing it to, or add a turbo. Then yes, I will have more torque. In this size engine, who cares what the torque is at 1500 rpm? You are well below your peak torque, so you better slow down or cut your grass more often. My 540 pto speed is at 2650 engine rpm. When I mow my rpm's will not drop more than 200 rpm. If you are lugging down to 1500 rpm you are doing something wrong. I am not anti-diesel. I love them. I own 2, and work with diesel engines everyday from 4.5 liter 173 hp to 32 liter 800 hp. Just trying to make a point that for everyone who owns a 300hp 600ft-lb turbo diesel in thier 3/4 ton pickup truck, that the torque curve on a little naturally aspirated Kubota is much different. Philip.

There is a big difference in design for an engine that is made to run at 3.000 RPM under full load then one that runs variable load. Diesels have always made more torque then gas engines, just the nature of the beast. Turbo's are a quick horsepower increase to a diesel engine, they aren't magical but just like to gas engines they do provide a good "boost"!

 

[PHILIP8N]

There is a big difference in design for an engine that is made to run at 3.000 RPM under full load then one that runs variable load.

What is the big difference? The V2003-M in my L3940 can bush hog 8 hours straight one day at 2650 rpm, and the next day do 8 hours FEL work with HST+ auto-throttle from 800 rpm to 2800 rpm.

Diesels have always made more torque then gas engines, just the nature of the beast.

No. Take a NA gasoline engine and a NA diesel engine of the same size (swept volume displacement). The gasoline engine will always make more hp and torque.

Turbo's are a quick horsepower increase to a diesel engine

That is my whole point! But, diesels are pretty gutless without a turbo. However, NA's sip fuel, run cool, and last forever. Anyone remember the old Ford/I-H 6.9 IDI NA? Probably only a few have driven one and sad 'What a beast!'.

Philip

 

[dodge man]

Ok everyone, thanks for all the good advice and feedback. Now down to the purchase. I have decided to go with the bx2360 60"MMM and front mounted blower with hydraulic rotating chute. Price quoted from dealer is $15,000 any thoughts?

Back to the OP's real question, I think a Bx2360 is a great choice. Just like you, I went from a gas powered 25hp with a 54" deck to a BX2350 with a 60" deck. It cut my mowing time, and is so much more comfortable to mow on. Consider a mulching kit also, I added one to mine, but its kind of pricey. I've added mulching kit to just about any mower I've had though, some people love them, some people hate them.

As far as price, it sounds like someone already figured list price, and that quote sounds like a good one. It will be a snow blowing beast, but plan on some googles and full face mask.

 

[GolfAddict]

That is my whole point! But, diesels are pretty gutless without a turbo. However, NA's sip fuel, run cool, and last forever. Anyone remember the old Ford/I-H 6.9 IDI NA? Probably only a few have driven one and sad 'What a beast!'.

Philip

I know nothing about hp and torque and all that, and sure sounds like you do so I'll take your expert word that there isn't much difference when the engine specs are the same.

I do however have experience running a gas mower and diesel mower at very nearly the same hp. When going through heavy grass that got way too long, there is no comparison. The diesel will power through it pretty much the same as if I hadn't missed a cutting. It's just awesome. The gas mower will bog down like crazy.

If this isn't due to hp or torque, what is it that makes such a difference? You mentioned engine displacement - is that the difference? My gas mower is a two cylinder, diesel a three cylinder. I'm guessing that there is some significant displacement difference, but don't know what it is. Is that what makes the "power" difference?

 

[PHILIP8N]

I know nothing about hp and torque and all that, and sure sounds like you do so I'll take your expert word that there isn't much difference when the engine specs are the same.

I do however have experience running a gas mower and diesel mower at very nearly the same hp. When going through heavy grass that got way too long, there is no comparison. The diesel will power through it pretty much the same as if I hadn't missed a cutting. It's just awesome. The gas mower will bog down like crazy.

If this isn't due to hp or torque, what is it that makes such a difference? You mentioned engine displacement - is that the difference? My gas mower is a two cylinder, diesel a three cylinder. I'm guessing that there is some significant displacement difference, but don't know what it is. Is that what makes the "power" difference?

Need more details. Manufacturer (engine), model number (engine), power rating, displacement, operating rpm, mower width, etc. Philip.

 

[GolfAddict]

Need more details. Manufacturer (engine), model number (engine), power rating, displacement, operating rpm, mower width, etc. Philip.

I only have some of the info you need, so you may not be able to explain the huge difference I see.

The gas mower is 21 hp B&S, I run it at full throttle (but no tach so I don't know the RPM). The mower deck is three blades, 42" cut.

The diesel is 23 hp (17 hp at the mid PTO which drives the mower, but I assume the engine hp is what's important.) I run it at about 3000 rpm. The mower deck is three blades, 54" cut.

The gas is 2hp smaller, but also cutting a full foot less grass each pass. The difference between the "power" of the two is night and day, from the day they've been new. I'm not exaggerating - there really is a huge difference. I'd always attributed that to diesel torque everyone talks about, but after reading your posts, that doesn't seem to be the case. Can the extra 2hp be making that much difference??

How big of a role does engine displacement play? I don't know the displacement of the two, but the B&S gas is only two cylinders, the Kubota diesel is three cylinders.

 

[kiotiken]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiotiken View Post
Before spending that much money, go look at a Kioti CK20 or Bobcat CT122 (exact same tractor except for the loader). If you don't have either around, look at McCormick or Landini (I don't know their model #, but again, same tractor, different FEL (FEL = Front End Loader) and color. You'll find they are small compact tractors, 22hp (roughly the same as the BX2360), have almost twice the loader capacity (assuming you're getting one, Kioti/Bobcat have a free loader program), weigh almost double without the loader and the Kioti version will have 4 years of warranty. You'll also get features usually reserved for the bigger more luxury line tractors. For a tractor, weight = traction, it also means there's a lot more metal in the Kioti with larger, stronger frames, axles etc. I don't do any damage to my lawn with my 6500lbs TBL (tractor, loader, backhoe) with loaded R4 industrial tires
A big, heavy tractor with huge FEL capacity. That type of tractor must be exactly what the OP was looking for.

Let's review...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sd124 View Post
I have 3 acres with a 24'x100' concrete driveway. I am currently using a white gt2550 25hp gas with a 54" deck to cut the grass and have an ahrens 11hp walk behind snowthrower. I am considering a kubota bx1860 diesel with blower attachment. I know very little about diesels. I'm sure that the kubota will more than handle what I need it for, but am I gaining or losing going with the 18hp diesel vs the 25hp gas? I also looked at the simplicity legacy xl, and jd x700 series. I don't know if I'll ever need the 3 point hitch or a fel but at least I'll be able to. I'm also considering the bx2360 with a 60" deck. Does the addtional cost out weigh the larger deck and hp? Like I stated earlier I will primarily be using it to cut grass, and snowblowing.
In summary:
OP wants to cut 3 acres of grass and perhaps snowblow in the future.
OP is not sure he will ever need a FEL or even a TPH.

You recommend a big, heavy tractor with a huge FEL capacity.

Yup, exactly what he was looking for.

Wrooster

The CK 20, a big bad gnarly tractor :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: I know the BX line is a SCUT and the CK 20 is a CUT, but it's the smallest tractor Kioti currently makes (wait a few months and the SCUT line will be at the dealers if it's not there now). A previous member posted that you will either buy a bigger tractor than you think you need, or trade the first one in and buy a bigger one later, I fully agree with that.

My point is simply if you're going to spend that kind of money, you can get a lot more tractor that will do all the things the little BX will do plus %1000 more! They are both small tractors that are maneuverable and easily stored. One is just capable of so much more and costs about the same.

Like the OP, I also have 3 acres, my driveway is paved and 26' X 100', I used to cut the lawn (3 hours) with a 20hp JD home depot special and clear the snow with a 28" 10hp Murray snowblower. I had no idea of all the things I would do with a tractor, but I'm currently on my second tractor and seriously regret not buying the next frame size up with double the lift capacity of the tractor I have, and mine is about 4 time the capacity of the BX2360! Buy as big as meets your budget IMO, and I think a lot of very experienced people on TBN will agree with that.