Hayloft is Crashing Down! Help!

[brin]

I'm not a lawyer but I have been around the block a few times....In my opinion at this point the Lease rules...whatever is written on a check matters not, it is not a contract and the Landlord can always say he never noticed it...he can say he has no recollection of any hay storage being discussed and so it becomes...he said...she said.....get an atty involved now just for a brief discussion so you are prepared...this is going to cost some money.

 

[GPintheMitten]

A local farmer came over to check it out. He is the one my daughter bought the hay from. He's going to bring a hydraulic barn jack over
and we are going to shore it up.

 

[murphy1244]

A local farmer came over to check it out. He is the one my daughter bought the hay from. He's going to bring a hydraulic barn jack over
and we are going to shore it up.

Good on him, its nice to get the help she needs. Now get the hay outa there.

 

[sdkubota]

I would not get anywhere near below those joists...the connections have failed but by the grace of God the floor hasn't collapsed, yet.

 

[LD1]

That's gold Jerry!...(Seinfeld episode)

It appears the owner had full knowledge about the hay and probably dropped the ball when having the building built to handle those loads. I would guess your daughter is an innocent participant although legal matters don't always end in justice. I would pay close attention to the owner and at the slightest hint of shifting any blame...get an attorney. Hopefully it will never come to that and I would guess he will try and sue the builder etc.

We actually agree on something I dont think I could have sumed it up any better myself.

IMO...Daughter is innocent since owner had knowledge of storing hay. Now wether the courts, owner, and insurance see it that way is a different story. So far, it sounds as if the owner is going to be cooperative. (contacting the insurance and builder, etc). But I agree at the slightest hint of shifting blame...lawyer up. But for the time being, it appears daughter is in the clear and owner is taking matters into his own hands.

Ya, when she told me that, I was more at ease. The current owner was not the owner at the time the barn was built.

It is highly doubtful that morton built that loft. That just dont look like their work IMO. BUT...there is a good chance that a contractor (and not the previous owner) did build the loft. But even so, regardless of WHO built the loft, MOST lofts in pole barns certainly arent built for handling 100psf or more. Typically they are built to more of a housing standard of 50psf as it appears this was designed (not counting faulty technique). In that case, I dont see how a builder could be liable. (unless there was a sign or something posted that said something like "rated for 100psf"). Kinda like if one were to try to hold GM accountable because they tried to haul 5000lbs in their S-10 p/u and wrecked.

 

[Artisan]

This is no doubt a bummer, you do not own it but you (well) caused issues.
I am not there but prob best to unload 100%, clean up, fix up...Done w/ some thought
it may not be to bad. Indeed that construction was not designed for that much
of a load, I almost see fault by both parties.

Put it back the way it was then add beams UNDER those joists. A good framer is
alls you need. Here are a bunch of links to materials close to you;

10 x 10 H Beams

barn beams 40ft

Hand Hewn Barn beams Delivery available!

3 steel I beams

2 Iron Beams 45ft by 18"

I-Beams 3 x 5 x .210 14ft

BARN BEAMS

Trailer 8x16' HD Flatbed

wood beams

I Beam

Be Carefull...

 

[GPintheMitten]

Started shoring up. Here's what we have so far.

 

[GPintheMitten]

I really appreciate all the help guys. I'm starting to feel a little better with the 6x6 under the dropped side. More to do to shore it up properly but we've made some progress. My son is coming out tonight and we will brace it better.

 

[sdkubota]

Looks good...based on the photos the span between beams is not that great. It also appears it would be easy to double up those joists since they are exposed. The other thing is the beams carrying those loads need to be sized correctly with better joist connection methods. Like I said, thank God nobody was hurt.

 

[Localmotion]

Started shoring up. Here's what we have so far.

I'm not going to try and guess who is to blame / not to blame - accidents happen and that is what this is...

Someone should have known that the loft wouldn't take the weight, be it the owner, previous owner, constructor, or possibly your daughter if she had not first clarified that the loft could be used for hay. The fact is that there is a breakdown in communication somewhere, and my guess is that it probably took place a long time ago - probably long before your daughter started renting the barn.

That breakdown in communication has led to this accident now.

If within the next day or two the owner does try to shift the blame (which in my opinion would be very unfair given what you have previously said), then I would simply remove the hay, keep on jacking to get that floor back where it should be and then replace the hangers - like for like. Your daughter will then have repaired the damage and put the loft back to it's original condition at her own cost - but the cost will be minimal.

Store the hay in the stalls or outside until the owner decided whether to upgrade the loft or not - ultimately if the owner doesn't want the cost, then they'll just have to accept that maybe your daughter doesn't want to rent a barn that isn't fit for her purpose....

 

[tinner666]

Nobody mentioned it, and the pix didn't really tell the story, but consider a 1'1/2" -2" all thread or similar to run between, parallel to the joists locking those bands together so they can't spread again.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Nobody mentioned it, and the pix didn't really tell the story, but consider a 1'1/2" -2" all thread or similar to run between, parallel to the joists locking those bands together so they can't spread again.

:thumbsup: Yeah. Sure looks like a spreading failure. The joists could have prevented the spread. But not by virtue of hangers. They arent designed for strength in that mode. ... A 1/16" metal strap nailed to the outside of the header and passing under it to fasten along the bottom edge pf each joist would do it.
larry

 

[MarkV]

Just my opinion, but I might add another vertical support as part of the "emergency" precautions and leave the rest to the insurance company, or engineer, or Morton or the owners choice of repair service. I would be concerned that if you did much more it could contaminate determining the cause and if you were injured the insurance would say you should not have been doing it in the first place. Just my 2 cents.

Mark

 

[dougtrr2]

Been watching this with interest and a lot of good thoughts in the thread. One point I would make is to consider shoring BOTH ends of the failed joists. Even though only one end tore loose the other end may have been damaged also. Just a thought.

Take Care
Doug in SW IA

 

[sdkubota]

Just my opinion, but I might add another vertical support as part of the "emergency" precautions and leave the rest to the insurance company, or engineer, or Morton or the owners choice of repair service. I would be concerned that if you did much more it could contaminate determining the cause and if you were injured the insurance would say you should not have been doing it in the first place. Just my 2 cents.

Mark

You touched on a very good point. Whatever repairs you make will shift liability to you for any future issues. You do not want to take liabilty for the structure in anyway. I would remove the hay and allow the building owner to direct any repairs that should be made. Even bringing the loft back to the original condition may shift liability to you as you have no idea what effects the collapse had on all the other joist hangers, etc. I probably worry over the smallest of details but as an engineer have to be extremely carefull about liability, project control, etc. and the possibility of future litigation.

 

[amaxwell]

Been watching this with interest and a lot of good thoughts in the thread. One point I would make is to consider shoring BOTH ends of the failed joists. Even though only one end tore loose the other end may have been damaged also. Just a thought.

Take Care
Doug in SW IA

Best idea yet, if the bowed beam shifts ANY more, the other end will also pull away and fall down!

 

[GPintheMitten]

All very good ideas gentlemen. Thank you.

I did shore up the other side that did not break loose. I bolted a 12' 2x12 to the posts at the level of directly under the floor joists. I placed 2 heavy screw floor jacks under each end of the 6x6 and used a 4x6 on each to support both ends of the 6x6.

Today the owner and an Amish barn builder came out. The owner is not trying to blame my daughter (or me) and thanked me very much for shoring things up so that it did not get worse. He offered to pay me for the $100 of lumber and bolts etc that I purchased to get it in better shape.

I'm not going to do anything more to the building.

The owner has filed a claim with his insurance company and called Morton Buildings. The adjustor and a Mortons Building rep are going to look at the situation with the owner on Monday.

The Amish barn builder told the owner that what I did improved things tremendously and are a good place to leave it until permanent fixes are made. He (the barn builder) recommended bolting 2x16 glue lam along the entire length of the barn on both sides to support the floor joists (like I did with the 2x12). He is going to give the owner a bid. The owner seems quite interested in making that improvement.

And the owner is willing to let the hay stay there because the builder said he could make the improvements with the hay there. He'll jack the bowed down joists up to be straight.

So, all in all, not a bad outcome, so far.

 

[sparc]

Started shoring up. Here's what we have so far.

you're probably already past this stage but that cribbing should be more substancial than what you have in these photos. stacking those 4x4s 6 high single width is not stable. now you've got your load tranferred over to another unstable support. place a 2x8 on the floor and run a 4x4 slightly longer than the final height so you have to wedge it in hitting it with a sledge at the bottom slightly after jacking up SLOWLY. Give the structure time to adjust as you raise it up. Bring it up evenly across the affected area. This should be done by three or more people for a job this size. Make sure you have an escape path planned and its not blocked with tools and timbers that you will trip over if you have to run like he!! when it breaks loose. I would have someone outside the work zone (with a phone) who will be able to call for help if something goes seriously wrong.

 

[sparc]

You touched on a very good point. Whatever repairs you make will shift liability to you for any future issues. You do not want to take liabilty for the structure in anyway. I would remove the hay and allow the building owner to direct any repairs that should be made. Even bringing the loft back to the original condition may shift liability to you as you have no idea what effects the collapse had on all the other joist hangers, etc. I probably worry over the smallest of details but as an engineer have to be extremely carefull about liability, project control, etc. and the possibility of future litigation.

i too believe this is the besst course of action for hte renter to take. its not their property and they should not have to repair this and they take on liability if they do in my opinion.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Thanks, sparc. Actually, the cribbing is more substantial than it may appear in the pics.

At any rate, the beam is now supported with the center jack and 2 screw jacks, and 4x6s on stable cribbing and another 4x6 not on any jack.

That, and the owner is taking it from here, with a barn builder to fix this failed section and then reinforcing the entire run of the loft with bolted thru glue lams.

The owner is taking responsibility for everything.