Building a switchback in a road

[Rio_Grande]

I am in the process of building roads through my property. Unfortunately my 15 acres was cut out with a straight edge and a map with little regard to accessing all of it. That left me with 4 hill sides 2creeks and areas so steep you cannot stand without loosing altitude. I cut a road up one of the hills from one of the creeks without much trouble using my ctl70. It isint perfect but the jeep can go up and down it. On one other hillside though I cut downhill and had to make a switch back to get turned and then a 100 yard long chute down into the creek. Next will be to go up the steepest longest biggest hill in similar manner.

My issue is with the switch back on the second described trail. In 20 feet of forward movement there is a 70 deg turn and a 15 foot drop. Needless to say on a dry day it is a white knuckle experience making that part of the road on a quad. The penalty for not making it is a 80 ish foot drop into the creek.

I want my kids to be able to ride quads through the woods and I can't let them on this.

I will get a pic next time I am out there but I was hoping some experienced folks might give me some advice. Budget is small but I have most equipment needed to do a lot of work.
My thought is to cut som cedars and build a retaining wall to hold the outside of the switchback, dig over into the hillside on the top and then make the turn occur right before you enter the Shute to go down.

Not sure that makes sense,

 

[Ken45101]

Switchbacks on steep hills just require a lot of digging and widening. I've found it easiest if you keep the actual turn flat.

I see no reason for it to be a "white knuckle experience", you just have to make enough room. OTOH, I recently did one switchback where it does require a 3 pt turn but I have plenty of room for that.

A retaining wall may help but it's a lot of work compared to just digging more dirt

 

[mattbatson]

subscribed!

I have 10 acres in western NC that I'm cutting roads through...It doesn't sound as steep at the OP's, but is too steep to drive up with a 4 wheel drive B21.
In fact, I have some pics of a road I'm beginning to cut across one of the hills with a rental B21...

I'm taking dirt from the uphill and just dumping it onto the downhill and compacting with the tractor. So, half of the road is solid undisturbed earth and half if compacted fill.

Of course, what that results in, is the downside of the hill past the new road is now MUCH steeper for about 20 ft or so.

I guess the only way to get around this is to dig further into the hillside and instead of dumping on the downside of the hill...taking the dirt off the property and selling it or something....














we have clay, and it is very stable.....

anyways, I'm interested in this thread and in maybe gleaning some information and ideas

 

[Ken45101]

Matt, Looks like you are doing an intersection rather than a simple switchback? Yes, those are more complicated because of the change in grade.

In my experience, although you have the fill compacted well, it will still settle for several years. I've started leaving extra height on the fill area so that it will hopefully settle closer to level.

BTW, I originally did work with a B21 but that little machine always worried me on a hillside I've graduated to a mini excavator and a skid steer.

 

[Rio_Grande]

Thanks for the replies. It amazes me what you can do with a little tractor. I like the idea of digging Dow as opposed to building it up. Our soil here is clay and settles forever if you don't compact it as you put it down. While possible it would be a lot harder on this particular part of the road than just cutting deeper into the hill. Attached is my machine. I don't think I could do this without it.

 

[mattbatson]

Matt, Looks like you are doing an intersection rather than a simple switchback? Yes, those are more complicated because of the change in grade.

In my experience, although you have the fill compacted well, it will still settle for several years. I've started leaving extra height on the fill area so that it will hopefully settle closer to level.

BTW, I originally did work with a B21 but that little machine always worried me on a hillside I've graduated to a mini excavator and a skid steer.

Your right, that isn't a switchback, but when I get to the other side of the property, about 600 ft or so, then I will be doing a switchback....hence my interest in this thread...

do you think a skidsteer and mini excavator are better on inclines?

To rio grande, I would love to see some pics if you have any.

and if anyone has pics of switchbacks they have done, that would be incredibly helpful also.

thx

 

[Rio_Grande]

I will get some pix this week of what I have currently. I have run both on soaps and am just more confident with my tracked skid steer but I have hundreds of hours of seat time in it. I have about 20 career hours in a track hoe. I have never run a little one.

I hope to get it all cut in soon. We are deer hunting now so I am not doing any excavating. As soon as the deer are all killed as long as rains don't set in I want to. Get back to work.

 

[Ken45101]

Your right, that isn't a switchback, but when I get to the other side of the property, about 600 ft or so, then I will be doing a switchback....hence my interest in this thread...

do you think a skidsteer and mini excavator are better on inclines?

To rio grande, I would love to see some pics if you have any.

and if anyone has pics of switchbacks they have done, that would be incredibly helpful also.

thx

A mini excavator more maneuverability and stability than a small backhoe and definitely more swing. A backhoe is limited to putting the dirt no more than 90 degrees to the side. And it has the dozer blade for pushing and leveling. A skid steer can often work faster (depending on rocks) but needs more width to maneuver. I kind of alternate between the mini-ex and the SS. Of course if you need to move dirt any distance, say for the switchback, a mini ex is very slow compared to a skid steer.

When initially cutting across a steep hillside, I definitely prefer the mini ex over the skid steer. If you don't have room to maneuver a skid steer, it's hard to do the initial cut with one across a hillside although I'm sure some good operators can do it.

Here's one photo of me working across a hillside

 

[Rio_Grande]

You know it is steep when it looks steep in the photo!

I am by far not a pro operator. But to dig with the skid steer I just do the back and forth method going up hill and coming down I can make longer back and forth runs. Coming up hill I find I have to dig the hill out to go up, coming down hil I can cut out enough to move up then when I can't do that I back up and cut to grade. Again I probably am doing it wrong. As always I am looking to learn.

 

[mattbatson]

A mini excavator more maneuverability and stability than a small backhoe and definitely more swing. A backhoe is limited to putting the dirt no more than 90 degrees to the side. And it has the dozer blade for pushing and leveling. A skid steer can often work faster (depending on rocks) but needs more width to maneuver. I kind of alternate between the mini-ex and the SS. Of course if you need to move dirt any distance, say for the switchback, a mini ex is very slow compared to a skid steer.

When initially cutting across a steep hillside, I definitely prefer the mini ex over the skid steer. If you don't have room to maneuver a skid steer, it's hard to do the initial cut with one across a hillside although I'm sure some good operators can do it.

Here's one photo of me working across a hillside
View attachment 347451

uh yeah, that is steep...

love the pics, as sometimes they can tell the story a little easier...

I have a lot of road to cut and dirt to move, and might have to consider doing a mini ex and skidsteer combo rather than a TLB.

I was looking at the L39 Kubota, and it would be the cheaper route for sure...

Pretty much all I have to do is dirt moving and digging. I wont be pulling a bush hog or anything like that...so maybe a tractor isn't the best fit for me.

lots to think about...

 

[Ken45101]

Well, you probably can do just about anything with a TLB. Or a SS or a mini ex. It's just an issue of how easy and how quick you can do it, and safety is an issue too. The previous owner here put in a waterline straight down a hill what I wouldn't take any equipment (or a 4 wheeler) down. He also said that several contractors turned him down, so he did it himself. I put a trail down that hill a few months ago but it was 4x as long and has three switchbacks on it. Some of the cuts are 5' high on the upside. I guess you could do it with a B21 but it would take a long time. Also, the B21 would have a lot of trouble with some of the rocks I ran into which probably weighed more than the B21. It all depends on the terrain.

I took some pictures of the switchbacks this afternoon. I'll post them after I get the phone recharged.

 

[Ken45101]

Okay, here are some trail pictures with switchbacks that I did a few months ago.

First is an easy switchback but I needed a fair amount of fill on the far side of the turn


Here is a tight one. I really need to dig out more on the left bank and fill in wider after the turn, on the outside. Right now it's a three point turn.


Here is the bottom of that turn, looking up the trail

It doesn't show very well but there is about 5 feet of fill on the right side.


Here is a trail junction/switchback. A lot of dirt was dug out coming down here and used to raise the main trail a couple of feet and widen it.


I hope these help somewhat.

Ken

 

[Rio_Grande]

Ken mine is similar to your first pic, but mine falls a little quicker. I am going to try to hunt tomorrow and will try to get some pix.

 

[mattbatson]

I agree on the b21 being a little small if you have big rock...which we do here in western NC...which is one reason we were considering the l39. Lot more machine.
I might even need to purchase a big stone chisel...they sell a couple of high powered ones at harbor freight....for a couple of the big granite pieces
that I ran into while building my driveway up to the ridge.

thanks a lot for the pics, it is always nice to see what others are working with, with regards to their properties...
that looks quite a bit like parts of western NC

 

[rd_macgregor]

It sounds like good info exchange so far, but I'd like to get back to the issue of kids on 4-wheelers. Maybe R_G's kids are ultra-cautious operators (or maybe I'm just an overly-protective parent), but I'd be tempted to put some sort of berm or guard-rail or something (tires; big round bales; ??) on the outside of the switchback, just in case somebody (unsuccessfully) tries high-speed turns through it.

 

[Rio_Grande]

I would tell you my kids are ultra cautious and the safest riders ever however my daughters broken collar bone and my sons skinned up face this year would make me a liar.

 

[/pine]

I wouldn't mind adding some (golf) cart trails on our property...but with steep terrain like here in the mountains the real issue is with dealing with storm run-off...if not properly planned, top coated and drained... I could end up with major washouts after one decent storm...for me switchbacks end up requiring a culvert at some point...

interesting project...

 

[Rio_Grande]

Not saying you are wrong pine but I have been amazed at how well my roads have held up in rocky clay soil. I think the key in my case is tree cover. I only cut my roads wide enough for my jeep and a small trailer. We haven't had a wash out yet. We do slope our roads slightly low on the hill side so water runs in instead of off. I don't even know if that is right but I have seen the county do it that way. They add gravel to the inside. It makes kinda a French drain.

Our trails get muddy and the specific trail we are talking about for my switchback I can't travel when it has been raining for a few days. I think if I level it out some and add som rock from the creek that we will be able too, or I will spend a bunch of money in fuel for nothing.

 

[BigEddy]

I've done a few cross slope cuts with my 855 TLB. My approach is to start at the bottom and work up moving backwards all the way. Dig from the up hill side and deposit on the downhill side. All logs and rocks are used to stabilize the bank. I cut past level so the uphill side is lower than the downhill side. I make sure my outside wheel stays on original dirt and not fill. For drainage I put Big O drains under the trail every so often. This way water runs along the uphill edge for a bit then crosses under and is directed away. No erosion this way.

Switch back turns should be level. Stop climbing and level out then make the turn before starting to climb again. I try to pick a good spot on the slope where there is a natural level spot or depression to minimize the digging. Add some drainage features around the turn to assist with moving the water away.

Typically I will cut and fill all the way up before I go back to do any final grading or smoothing. That way I have the length of trail to drive along and am not trying to turn or maneuver on a narrow ledge.

Wear your seat belt

 

[Rio_Grande]

See if they show up