Briefly running engine in garage

[ericher69]

I am now afraid of mowing with my John Deere as a result of this thread. To be honest I'm scared to drive tractors anymore. Coyote Machine claims that ANY amount of CO exposure is harmful. I don't think he realizes that every time we operate our tractors outdoors we are exposed to significant levels of CO from the tailpipe mounted in front of the operator. I recently purchased another CO meter which is a high end Pyle meter used by OSHA for compliance testing. I tested my 2004 John Deere L130 riding mower while operating it outdoors in the same manner as anyone in the world would do while cutting grass. I held the meter at face level while driving the mower. The meter registered continuous CO levels of 35 - 50 ppm and frequently spiked over 150 ppm. The only time CO levels dropped to OSHA permissible levels was when there was a negative headwind. I also tested my 1984 John Deere 420 Garden Tractor. Holding the meter at face level while operating the tractor outdoors, continuous CO levels were about 50 ppm and spiked to over 300 ppm in headwind. I'm hoping someone with more factual information will explain the threshold of carbon monoxide exposure to operators of riding mowers and tractors in the OUTDOORS. Most lawn tractors have the exhaust outlet in front of the cowl exposing the operators to a continuous plume of CO. Do I need to be afraid of those levels of CO while operating my mower and tractor outdoors? I am very concerned of the CO levels from the JD 420. So much that I am considering selling it to buy a zero turn mower where the exhaust exits from behind. This chart shows that CO exposure at just 100 ppm for 1 hour will cause brain damage. My john deere's exceed 100 ppm frequently according to my CO meter.

Why not run a pipe out the back of your tractor? As a firefighter I need to immediately (don) wear my SCBA when CO is present at 25ppm or above (was changed about 5 yrs ago used to be 35ppm) Anyways here is everything you ever wanted to know about CO and it's detrimental effects on humans. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp201-c3.pdf You are obviously concerned about it as Nobody buys a CO detector and rides around with it! Good for you though for looking out for number one...you! Sent from my iPhone 5s 64Gb using TractorByNet

 

[OutbackL130]

Why not run a pipe out the back of your tractor? As a firefighter I need to immediately (don) wear my SCBA when CO is present at 25ppm or above (was changed about 5 yrs ago used to be 35ppm) Anyways here is everything you ever wanted to know about CO and it's detrimental effects on humans. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp201-c3.pdf You are obviously concerned about it as Nobody buys a CO detector and rides around with it! Good for you though for looking out for number one...you! Sent from my iPhone 5s 64Gb using TractorByNet

The health effects of CO exposure are detrimental.

The existing CO regulations are apparently incongruent. I would like to know why firefighters are required to wear their SCBA at CO levels of 25 ppm, but it's acceptable for manufacturers to make lawn mowers and tractors that are puffing exhaust concentrations of 50 - 200 ppm CO into your face when the machines are being used properly? I would like to hear from a safety engineer at any tractor manufacturer or an OSHA safety officer explaining how these excessive amounts are safe and acceptable.

I haven't seen anybody reroute the exhaust to the back. My mower and tractor are nothing unique. Millions of people have similar machines bought from dealers and big box stores around the world. Nobody fears CO exposure when driving them, yet the high CO levels are there.


Am I overreacting about this?


Thanks for the link with in depth information. As a firefighter and a tractor owner, do you think CO levels on the tractor are anything to be worried about?

 

[ericher69]

Am I overreacting about this?

Thanks for the link with in depth information. As a firefighter and a tractor owner, do you think CO levels on the tractor are anything to be worried about?

Note: this is not medical/legal/professional advice. It Is intended for informative/entertainment purposes only and any concerns should be investigated by qualified professionals on site with proper diagnostic tools and calibrated monitoring equipment.

Let's see; have you had any acute exposure symptoms in the past when operating your tractors? Ie; severe headache, vomiting, bright red cherry skin, shortness of breath, flu like symptoms, sleepiness etc etc?

If so then you are not overreacting as you are showing signs that you are being affected!

Do I worry about CO levels on my 3 cylinder Kubota diesel? No as diesels typically produce less CO. Here is an interesting article; please read

http://www3.abe.iastate.edu/human_house/aen206.asp

I have been severely affected by CO in my younger days. Old walk behind snowblower, deep snow, Rich fuel mix and 12 plus hours of exposure. Severe headache that no amount of Tylenol, Advil and pure oxygen would relieve, vomiting, etc etc.

If your engines are well tuned you shouldn't have to worry out in the open. I realize you registered some readings of 300ppm with the monitor. Thing with monitors is that they are always sampling (they don't exhale like we do) so that 300 ppm spike could have been when you where talking, coughing, exhaling and might not even be an issue. Just saying.

If you are concerned then re routing the exhaust to the back of the tractor could significantly reduce your exposure in most cases; but you will always breath some in.

Hope this helps.

Sent from my iPhone 5s 64Gb using TractorByNet

 

[3930dave]

The health effects of CO exposure are detrimental.

The existing CO regulations are apparently incongruent. I would like to know why firefighters are required to wear their SCBA at CO levels of 25 ppm, but it's acceptable for manufacturers to make lawn mowers and tractors that are puffing exhaust concentrations of 50 - 200 ppm CO into your face when the machines are being used properly? I would like to hear from a safety engineer at any tractor manufacturer or an OSHA safety officer explaining how these excessive amounts are safe and acceptable.

I haven't seen anybody reroute the exhaust to the back. My mower and tractor are nothing unique. Millions of people have similar machines bought from dealers and big box stores around the world. Nobody fears CO exposure when driving them, yet the high CO levels are there.


Am I overreacting about this?


Thanks for the link with in depth information. As a firefighter and a tractor owner, do you think CO levels on the tractor are anything to be worried about?

Outback - if you own that high-end meter, it would be interesting to have it in your car for a while. I'd be curious about situations like traffic jams, but esp. parking garages with lineups, tunnels....

Not trying to lessen the amount of sleep you get by worrying more, but I've often wondered about locations like the above.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Do I worry about CO levels on my 3 cylinder Kubota diesel? No as diesels typically produce less CO.

Hope this helps.

Sent from my iPhone 5s 64Gb using TractorByNet

CO performance of diesels seems to be "forgotten" by Can/USA regulatory bodies.

Rgds, D.

 

[OutbackL130]

It's interesting the highest CO reading I ever had with this meter was inside my Chevy Silverado which registered over 500 ppm. I had the truck warming up outside in the driveway for just 2 minutes while the driver and passenger doors happened to be open as I was putting stuff in the truck. I noticed a slight breeze which was funneling exhaust to the open doors and into the cab. Otherwise the CO levels are 0 inside a normal car or truck with the windows up under driving condition. If you have an SUV with a roll down rear window there is a condition called the station wagon effect, which due to negative pressure I believe its called will pull high amounts of CO in through the rear window as you drive.

I know the L130 is tuned correctly. My 420 might be running rich, although I've recently had it looked at by the john deere dealer and they said it was running fine. The big difference between the two is the 420 has the exhaust coming out of the right fender at the top where the L130 is your typical riding mower with the muffler located below the cowl. IMO the position of the L130 muffler allows the CO to be dispersed more before reaching your face where with the 420 you get a direct facefull of exhaust under the right headwind conditions. Unfortunately we can not control the way the wind blows!

With all this said, the John Deere 420 and its cousin the 318 are probably the most popular garden tractor ever made by John Deere and have been around for 30 years. During that time I have never heard of someone being poisoned by CO while operating them under normal conditions. My tractors are in proper working order as verified by the dealer. Imagine how many there have been with engine problems which people run till they blow, yet I still haven't found a single documented case of CO poisoning on one of these tractors.

I'm confused why given the amount of CO I recorded the problem isnt well documented. Maybe the problem has gone unnoticed. I know if I rode my 420 all day I would have a headache. I feel dizzy after an hour on it, but if I wasn't currently obsessing over CO like I am right now I would not be able to link the dizziness to CO. I would just think I was dehydrated.

Examples of these John Deere models for those who aren't familiar with them.

 

[buickanddeere]

I am now afraid of mowing with my John Deere as a result of this thread. To be honest I'm scared to drive tractors anymore. Coyote Machine claims that ANY amount of CO exposure is harmful. I don't think he realizes that every time we operate our tractors outdoors we are exposed to significant levels of CO from the tailpipe mounted in front of the operator.

I recently purchased another CO meter which is a high end Pyle meter used by OSHA for compliance testing. I tested my 2004 John Deere L130 riding mower while operating it outdoors in the same manner as anyone in the world would do while cutting grass. I held the meter at face level while driving the mower. The meter registered continuous CO levels of 35 - 50 ppm and frequently spiked over 150 ppm. The only time CO levels dropped to OSHA permissible levels was when there was a negative headwind.

I also tested my 1984 John Deere 420 Garden Tractor. Holding the meter at face level while operating the tractor outdoors, continuous CO levels were about 50 ppm and spiked to over 300 ppm in headwind.

I'm hoping someone with more factual information will explain the threshold of carbon monoxide exposure to operators of riding mowers and tractors in the OUTDOORS. Most lawn tractors have the exhaust outlet in front of the cowl exposing the operators to a continuous plume of CO. Do I need to be afraid of those levels of CO while operating my mower and tractor outdoors? I am very concerned of the CO levels from the JD 420. So much that I am considering selling it to buy a zero turn mower where the exhaust exits from behind.

This chart shows that CO exposure at just 100 ppm for 1 hour will cause brain damage. My john deere's exceed 100 ppm frequently according to my CO meter.

Explains why so many operators feel drained and tired after operating equipment. Also explains some of the wrecks and incidents that defy logical explanation of of clear thinking operator.

 

[troutsqueezer]

Oh great, now that I've quit drinking diet soda, cut down on the salt, cured my sleep apnea, started on the cholesterol drugs, had my blood pressure normalized, quit eating Chinese shrimp, running two miles a day, working crossword puzzles , increased vegetable and fruit intake, staying out of the sun, using sunscreen, cutting down on stress, quit smoking, quit drinking and now am driving in the slow lane, mowing my lawn is gonna kill me.

Oh wait.... I haven't done any of those things. Why start now? I'll just stop mowing the lawn. :confused2:

 

[Notlaker]

Last summer I noticed I was getting severe headaches while using my Zero Turn for more than an hour. I am starting to get worried now. I have a Gravely with the twin Kawasaki engine behind me. Anyone else get headaches on their Zero Turn? Don't recall getting the headaches the summer before last

 

[cqaigy2]

Oh great, now that I've quit drinking diet soda, cut down on the salt, cured my sleep apnea, started on the cholesterol drugs, had my blood pressure normalized, quit eating Chinese shrimp, running two miles a day, working crossword puzzles , increased vegetable and fruit intake, staying out of the sun, using sunscreen, cutting down on stress, quit smoking, quit drinking and now am driving in the slow lane, mowing my lawn is gonna kill me.

Oh wait.... I haven't done any of those things. Why start now? I'll just stop mowing the lawn. :confused2:

Might be healthier to use a weed whip and a smaller lawn.

 

[Coyote machine]

CO exposure is cumulative, which is why firefighters need the reduced exposure levels. Think of asbestos. It was used everywhere, in vermiculite, floor tiles, roofing shingles, brake pads, etc. Lawsuits put many companies out of business AFTER the dangers were discovered, and the suits continue today. It wasn't thought of as dangerous until it was found out to be, and then it became unsafe to handle, to be exposed to, without proper handling methods, (which are extensive, and performed only by licensed and highly trained abatement companies).
Mowers and tractors, both gas and diesel do produce CO. Could an operator get seriously sick or die from exposure to CO from a riding mower, zero turn, tractor, mini-ex, etc.? Possibly, probably and maybe. Just because one can't locate statistics documenting something doesn't mean it can't / doesn't happen.
I can attest to getting headaches from mowing on 'still air' days, and on days where the exhaust is around me. Same with my diesel tractor. BTW, I use a zero turn, and used to use a conventional under cowl mounted ride mower and have had wicked headaches after using either. When mowing, one is usually exposed to CO that lingers in the air as you come back around the last cut area in an overlapping cut pattern, regardless of what type of mower one uses. If one really wants to reduce/eliminate CO exposure from cutting one's lawn I would hire out the job to a lawn care company. Seriously, that's about the only way to limit exposure significantly.

And joking about how 'funny' it seems to take CO exposure seriously is just plain stupid.
People die everyday in their own homes as a result of exposure to CO, and regardless of cause or reason why, that in an of itself is a seriously sad commentary on a completely tragic and totally preventable outcome. Ignorance and lack of knowledge about proper prevention, including and beyond detection meters and alarms is still a major factor in home deaths and poisoning from CO.
No one should suffer the damage of CO poisoning, long term exposure or death.
Knowingly risking exposure to an odorless, tasteless, colorless deadly poison is complete foolishness. One doesn't need testimony from some self proclaimed expert in the field of exposure to deadly toxins to conclude that the dangers are real, though the exposure levels may vary significantly from site specific conditions regarding one's lawn cutting tasks.

 

[MikePA]

Information has been shared. Everyone can use it, or not, as they see fit. Insulting those who disagree with you violates TBN rules.

 

[downsizingnow48]

Agree with mikepa. TBN is blessedly free from the insulting posts that diminish so many other forums.

 

[dragoneggs]

Information has been shared. Everyone can use it, or not, as they see fit. Insulting those who disagree with you violates TBN rules.

Hi Mike... I guess I missed the 'insult' in my reading and following of this thread. While I definitely agree that this is a serious topic and we can learn from many of the comments here, I don't see anything wrong with a little levity as long as it is not a personal attack. If we didn't joke and laugh a little, it would be a pretty boring place in my mind.

 

[Amhrepair]

OutBack,
I don't think you really have anything to worry about outside because its out on the fresh air. The only time you should worry about co levels is in an inclosed area where the fumes can take over.
Adam

 

[troutsqueezer]

Hi Mike... I guess I missed the 'insult' in my reading and following of this thread. While I definitely agree that this is a serious topic and we can learn from many of the comments here, I don't see anything wrong with a little levity as long as it is not a personal attack. If we didn't joke and laugh a little, it would be a pretty boring place in my mind.

This topic is not nearly as serious as some here make it out to be. It's worth laughing at, IYAM.

 

[descanso1]

This topic is not nearly as serious as some here make it out to be. It's worth laughing at, IYAM.

What he said!! You can not go through life being afraid of you own shadow... With these kinds of comments in a few years you will only be able to buy an all electric tractor?? But then you would have to worry about the acid from the batteries leaking of not using it in wet weather do to electrocution...

 

[dragoneggs]

What he said!! You can not go through life being afraid of you own shadow... With these kinds of comments in a few years you will only be able to buy an all electric tractor?? But then you would have to worry about the acid from the batteries leaking of not using it in wet weather do to electrocution...

No, no... don't say it. An electric tractor! :thumbdown: There is something about the sound of a diesel in the morning! :thumbsup:

 

[murphy1244]

No, no... don't say it. An electric tractor! :thumbdown: There is something about the sound of a diesel in the morning! :thumbsup:

And the smell of Napalm.

 

[dragoneggs]

And the smell of Napalm.

You caught my drift.