Any Polaris 4WD Experts? I'm Disappointed With My Ranger 500 In Snow

[94BULLITT]

Thanks for the input, that is more than I have found so far.
I went to a different dealer Saturday to look at new Rangers and discuss the 4WD system. He quoted me the same stuff I had already heard about how it engaged. When I asked about how it disengaged he said "whenever it no longer detected rear-wheel slippage". This is simply not a satisfactory explanation to me. He did admit that it will be continually shifting in and out of front-wheel engagement.

I have owned several ATVs and I like the fact that 4WD is 4WD when I want it. My current Ranger stays in 4WD with the front wheels engaged until I disengage it. Maybe the new system is smarter than me or maybe i am just old-school but I am still researching answers.

Have you looked at a Polaris forum? There may be a way to make it full time 4WD.

 

[k0ua]

How about grooving your tires for better snow traction? See the latest testimonial on the last page.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/snow-removal/193438-cutting-groving-siping-r-4-a.html

 

[carpenter383]

The Polaris 4x4 system is just an electromagnetic one way (sprag) clutch in the front axle. When awd is selected and the rear wheels spin faster than the fronts the clutch locks and power the front wheels. I have an 06 ranger 500 that has stock tires and it dosent have the fishtailing problem you describe at all. Also it does better off road than my old mule 610. The mule would spin only 1 front tire if the conditions were right where the Polaris powers all 4.
I did have to replace the front sprag clutch in my ranger which was around $300 if I remember right, they did have some problems with the plastic cage breaking in them. It would bind up in 4x4 and even in 2wd the front wheels would try to engage if you spun 1 tire in turf mode. I read that it was partly from leaving it in 4x4 too much causing the non magnetized plate to become magnetized.

 

[SpudHauler]

Carpenter,

he hasn't told us if the front wheels are even been driven so who knows.

I told him how to test.

It's either your sprag suggestion or no power feed to engage.

 

[jdjdjd]

I just read through a long discussion of this over at a Ranger forum. They even posted a video that shows the 4WD drive engaged and the rear wheels turning at a faster rate than the front. Tires are marked and you can clearly see the front wheels rotating slower than the rear.
This is not what I want on a 4WD UTV.

 

[Xfaxman]

I could do that but in the condition I described, in 2wd it's really fishtailing, which is why I use 4wd. My point/complaint is switching to 4wd doesn't help the Ranger, unlike on my ATV's and old Mule which track nice and straight once they're put in 4wd with all wheels turning in unison. Honestly I think it's a poor system and probably wouldn't have bought this Ranger had I known. Too late for me but I guess sharing this knowledge may help someone else.

Maybe what you call fishtailing, is what I call wander. when I got it, it would not go straight on the gravel driveway in 2wd. It would wander from side to side, I had to move the steering wheel back and forth to keep it on the driveway.

I checked the toe out and it measured 1 1/4". I adjusted it and no more wander.

My Ranger EV doesn't fishtail at all, even on frozen sleet in 4wd.

 

[SpudHauler]

That video doesn't prove anything about the fronts turning slower than the backs.

It's impossible. As I said the system would tear itself apart if they turned at different speeds.

The front is slower there because of the differential shifting power from the left front to the right front.

You can't see both front tires at the same time otherwise you would see the right front is sometimes turning when the left looks like it is slowing down.

If the right front was locked from turning you would then see both front and back turning at the same speed.

 

[PapaPerk]

all 4X4's--tractors or trucks-- the front wheels spin faster than the rear--they are designed that way

What is your source for this "fact"? I've never heard that one before! Lol

Your statement is not true.

 

[PapaPerk]

The Polaris 4x4 system is just an electromagnetic one way (sprag) clutch in the front axle. When awd is selected and the rear wheels spin faster than the fronts the clutch locks and power the front wheels. I have an 06 ranger 500 that has stock tires and it dosent have the fishtailing problem you describe at all. Also it does better off road than my old mule 610. The mule would spin only 1 front tire if the conditions were right where the Polaris powers all 4.
I did have to replace the front sprag clutch in my ranger which was around $300 if I remember right, they did have some problems with the plastic cage breaking in them. It would bind up in 4x4 and even in 2wd the front wheels would try to engage if you spun 1 tire in turf mode. I read that it was partly from leaving it in 4x4 too much causing the non magnetized plate to become magnetized.

Good description. Polaris uses this system so vehicle is easy to steer. So far mine works flawlessly and provides excellent vehicle dynamics.... Especially in high speed low traction situations.

I dont disagree that it would be nice to lock vehicle into 4wd. Vehicle stabilty and handling would suffer. But that's impossible with sprag clutch in place. Clutch would have to be removed and soild connection added... Or disconnect like Honda 4wd atvs use.

 

[SpudHauler]

For all you Polaris 4 wheelers out there.

The number 1 reason for front drive failure is this little note in your owners manual.

Notice: Switching to AWD while the rear wheels are spinning may cause severe drive shaft and clutch damage.
Always switch to AWD while the rear wheels have traction or are at rest.



And this applies to all 4wd systems.

Knowledgeable drivers switch to 4wd before they actually need it and in so doing eliminate the chance of doing damage to their drive system. Otherwise you should return to an idle, switch on the AWD, and then slowly speed back up allowing the system to engage.

His video is a good example of how to switch between forward/reverse and 2wd/4wd with ease allowing the system to engage and disengage. Great video for that part of the demonstration. Too bad he doesn't understand how the front differential was actual working.

Hope this helps save a few owners costly repair bills.

 

[David_Kb7uns]

The Polaris ATV use a Hilliard clutch system in the front axle, the rear wheels are always pushing the fronts a little until they slip. when slippage occurs the drivetrain in the front catches up to a set of rollers in a cage. When the roller cage is restricted from movement by friction on a plate that is kept from moving by an electromagnet the rollers move up a ramp and bind. when the binding occurs the front wheels start being driven. Some Polaris ATVs have either a plastic cage or a metal one depending on when they were made. If you do jumping or engaging while wheels are spinning things can and will be broken. Most Polaris units have a lockout for engaging above a certain RPM or when out of gear. If your gear indication sensor is not telling what gear you bare in the 4WD usually will not engage. If things are indicating engagement and it is not happening chances are there may be internal damage with a bent armature plate, bad magnet or broken cage. Improper tire sizing will also effect engagement.

Exploded view of system
http://www.hilliardcorp.com/media/1...fferential-for-On-Demand-Four-Wheel-Drive.pdf

David Kb7uns

 

[biffnh]

I have a 2011 400 HO and I am very impressed with the 4WD system and how well it handles snow and ice. The only thing that seems to stop it is deep snow. Just don't shift to 4WD while the rear wheels are spinning, but on the fly is fine. I have 650 hours on my machine and only regular maintenance items so far.

 

[Milo]

Thanks. This illustrates what was I felt was contributing to the unstable tracking on ice and snow and the rear spinning up the surface of the wet trail going up a steep hill while the fronts were rotating at ground speed. IMO this Hilliard system belongs on a golf cart or maybe an AWD garden tractor to help prevent it from getting stuck but not on a ATV or UTV. Does any other manufacturer utilize this setup?

I just read through a long discussion of this over at a Ranger forum. They even posted a video that shows the 4WD drive engaged and the rear wheels turning at a faster rate than the front. Tires are marked and you can clearly see the front wheels rotating slower than the rear.
This is not what I want on a 4WD UTV.

 

[PapaPerk]

I have a 2011 400 HO and I am very impressed with the 4WD system and how well it handles snow and ice. The only thing that seems to stop it is deep snow. Just don't shift to 4WD while the rear wheels are spinning, but on the fly is fine. I have 650 hours on my machine and only regular maintenance items so far.

Great to hear! That's a lot of hours! I have a 2012 400 and really like it. Goes great in snow. Hope mine follows your track record!

 

[jimgerken]

I have similar experience with a JD Gator 825i UTV. The rear tires have to be spinning 5% faster than the fronts, for the fronts to get any power, when locked in 4WD. Apprently JD engineers decided this is the way it had to work with the components they had and the amount of stress they wanted the front drive system to experience. I have been told it works the same as a Subaru car. The problem is, when in snow the rears spin all the time. After using this machine a while, I decided to put tracks on it for snow use. When I looked in to tracks, I found out that Camoplast has a full range of sprockets, and will specify different sprockets based on your horsepower. Also, for the Gator (and others ???) they will specify two different size sprockets, one for rear, and different for front, to encourage the differential system that controls power to the front to supply power continuously. The tracks work well with this setup.
I think you could do something similar with tires SIZES. Size the front slightly different than the rear (or slightly different than original). This confuses the differential and causes it to deliver power continuously. It would take some experimenting. Fine tune it with air pressure. If you can find out what the magic number is (like the Gator is supposedly 5%), you could then calculate a tire size that could get you close. Check me on this, but I THINK that means the front tires must be smaller, but maybe I have that backwards.

 

[PapaPerk]

I have similar experience with a JD Gator 825i UTV. The rear tires have to be spinning 5% faster than the fronts, for the fronts to get any power, when locked in 4WD. Apprently JD engineers decided this is the way it had to work with the components they had and the amount of stress they wanted the front drive system to experience. I have been told it works the same as a Subaru car. The problem is, when in snow the rears spin all the time. After using this machine a while, I decided to put tracks on it for snow use. When I looked in to tracks, I found out that Camoplast has a full range of sprockets, and will specify different sprockets based on your horsepower. Also, for the Gator (and others ???) they will specify two different size sprockets, one for rear, and different for front, to encourage the differential system that controls power to the front to supply power continuously. The tracks work well with this setup.
I think you could do something similar with tires SIZES. Size the front slightly different than the rear (or slightly different than original). This confuses the differential and causes it to deliver power continuously. It would take some experimenting. Fine tune it with air pressure. If you can find out what the magic number is (like the Gator is supposedly 5%), you could then calculate a tire size that could get you close. Check me on this, but I THINK that means the front tires must be smaller, but maybe I have that backwards.

Subaru drivetrain does not work the way you describe. It uses 3 diffs... Front, center, and rear. Center is viscous coupler... It has ability to transfer power to front and rear based on traction conditions. Center diffs are required on road vehicles with awd due to each wheel turning at different rates. Any slippage of tires on dry pavement is a recipe for disaster on a road vehicle. In other words the front and rear tires do not operate at different speeds during normal operation... Of course the speeds can change during wheel slippage because thats how all wheel drive works.

As far as trying to fool the Polaris awd system into thinking the rear is slipping all the time... Good luck with that. Lol!

 

[Milo]

I have similar experience with a JD Gator 825i UTV. The rear tires have to be spinning 5% faster than the fronts, for the fronts to get any power, when locked in 4WD....
....Size the front slightly different than the rear (or slightly different than original). This confuses the differential and causes it to deliver power continuously. It would take some experimenting. Fine tune it with air pressure. If you can find out what the magic number is (like the Gator is supposedly 5%), you could then calculate a tire size that could get you close. Check me on this, but I THINK that means the front tires must be smaller, but maybe I have that backwards.

LOL I guess I was destined to end up with this set-up because the other UTV I had narrowed down to was a John Deere!

I tried that with air pressure. My thought was to make the rear tire diameter smaller which would mean the wheel would turn faster relative to the front. So I under-inflated the rears by 6 pounds and over-inflated the fronts of course that alone wouldn't make up a 20% difference. It was difficult to tell but it may have helped a bit.

 

[PapaPerk]

LOL I guess I was destined to end up with this set-up because the other UTV I had narrowed down to was a John Deere!

I tried that with air pressure. My thought was to make the rear tire diameter smaller which would mean the wheel would turn faster relative to the front. So I under-inflated the rears by 6 pounds and over-inflated the fronts of course that alone wouldn't make up a 20% difference. It was difficult to tell but it may have helped a bit.

Have you talked to dealer about it? If you run it with all fours in the air you should easily be able to measure rpm differences between front and back.

 

[Milo]

Have you talked to dealer about it? If you run it with all fours in the air you should easily be able to measure rpm differences between front and back.

No but I believe the response is "they all do that".

 

[johnk]

I have a 2012 Polaris 500 EFI UTV. Going side ways across a hill in the snow It is a mother to steer in AWD. It fishtails real bad with the rear always slipping downhill. I have great tires on it but my Honda Rubicon ATV really outperformed this UTV on sidehill slippage and downhill braking. Sure like the pickup bed and the SXS seats though that make up for it!