Diverter valve Vs. True third function

[HokieMS]

What does everyone have for their grapple, for one-handed operation? I wouldn't want it controlled by a rear remote, for instance.
I can think of pros and cons for both setups, but would like to hear other opinions.

For instance, Ted at EA says in a video IIRC, that true 3rd function is superior, and he clearly knows a thing or two about implements. But I can think of a handful of scenarios where I would want to feather the 3rd function (ex. hydro post hole digger attached to bucket, trying to pick up specific log with grapple, etc.).
This would be easy to do with a diverter. Push the button, and feather the curl function. I understand that means no curl and 3rd function at the same time. That is not a big deal for me, I'm not on the clock when working on the tractor.

Am I missing something? Is there a big downside to diverters that I don't see?
Eventually I would purchase and install myself. Is there a huge difference in installation between the two?

Thanks
Mark

Edit: crap. Just realized this should be in the hydraulics forum. Mods, please move if needed.

 

[smstonypoint]

Edit: crap. Just realized this should be in the hydraulics forum. Mods, please move if needed.

You can contact a moderator by clicking on the "triangle" icon at the bottom left of your message.

Steve

 

[super55]

I'm glad you posted this question Hokie because I am kind of curious as well. I thought I had my heart set on a third function but after some more research I am starting to think maybe a diverter valve would be my best option.

From what I've heard the plumbing to do a diverter is much simplier than a third funct. and I too like the idea of being able to feather the hydraulics. My main thought was if I was to use it for picking up hay bales or planting a tree with a root basket I would be much less likely to crush them.

Interested to hear what some of the people that have diverter valves or third funct. have to say.

 

[Fallon]

A diverter is going to be 2 valves (1 for each line going to the cylinders) you put inline with your existing curl lines. Hit a button & they switch from curl to 3rd function. A fair bit easier than adding another valve into your power beyond loop. You need less hose too as you can put the valves in a convenient spot near the bucket.

You only get curl or 3rd function, not both at the same time as you already noted though. That's probably the biggest drawback.

I keep think about doing it with a 3 way valve instead of a 2 way to add a cylinder to my SSQA levers so my lazy *** doesn't have to get off the tractor to switch from bucket to forks (would need to get off & deal with 3rd function hoses for a grapple I don't yet have though).

 

[Fallon]

My third is electric valve so it is plumbed to the front and controlled by a thumbswitch on the loader joystick.
It is great for what it is used for and that is a grapple. I DON'T like the electric third for hydraulic top link for instance. When I have tried it on that it wasn't as controllable as a lever. So my 4th and 5th remotes are manual levers which would be the same really as using a diverter in that you get the precise control.
IF you are definitely doing a grapple or 4 in 1 bucket for the JD 4005 in your profile I would for sure do the diverter and have a set of hoses made up and plumb one to the front and the other to the back. This gives you flexibility too that you could always make up another set of hoses in the future to run both to the back if more was needed.

Just to be clear your talking about 2 different things, an electric over hydraulic valve & a diverter valve. The diverter just toggles between 2 hoses & uses the normal valve (probably manual, but could be electric over hydraulic as well). An electric over hydraulic valve is just an electrically operated valve (on tractors it will be tied into the power beyond loop). Electric over hydraulic will be a simple on-off valve operated by a switch or button unless you shell out some big bucks for a fancy proportional valve & controls (think modern excavator joysticks)

Some 3rd fuction setups use an electric over hydraulic valve, where you push a button & the cylinder moves (speed is dependent on how fast your engine/pump is going at the time & not really anything else). Using the diverter, you push a button and your normal finely adjustable curl function moves your 3rd function with the speed dependent on how much you push on the curl lever.

 

[BukitCase]

I definitely prefer the solenoid diverter for things like grapples - here's the one I bought, it runs about $170.

Scorpion Technologies LTD. - S-Series

Either call them (you'll probably talk to Eden, she's really nice) or ask Brian at Fitrite (member here) it's about the same price either way... Steve

 

[J_J]

The true 3rd function valve is an independent valve that is controlled by a switch and provides full flow to the attachment. It usually has no relief.

Some people like to associate the 3rd function with the grapple/loader, but it is just a valve that can be added anywhere before the last valve which is the 3pt.

The diverter valve is an add on to the curl circuit that lets you use a switch to route the curl fluid to control a grapple or the bucket curl. You can feather the grapple or bucket curl.

You normally can not use any hyd past the valve you are using unless you only use half lever, and that will let half of the fluid downstream for other hyd operation.

The diverter valves run as low as $95 from Baileynet.com

3rd function about $135, and subplate about $36

Let me correct my statement above. You can get hyd flow through the subplate OUT port, but is is the fluid from the cyl or motor you are controlling. It might not be the flow and pressure you like.

Keep in mind that a subplate valve is plumbed in series and the OUT port connects to the next valve. So it will affect the hyd action downstream.

Which is better? You know the situation you want, so it is your choice. .

 

[kennyd]

I've had a diverter for my grapple for years, works very well for me. On some machines, they are much easier to install than a true 3rd function setup.

 

[Guesseral]

I have the diverter valve and it works great the only problems I have had are as follows.

After I installed it the constant opening and closing created a current surge and the button I used although rated for the current couldn't handle the constant surge, so I had to install a relay and let the button control the relay. No big deal just a live and learn thing.

The other thing is more of a coordination deal. I forget that when I let go of the button if I have the loader lever to one side or the other the bucket moves and startles me. That isn't really a problem but it is a drawback. The only problem with this one is that I do not use the grapple enough to get used to this little tidbit and even when I get pretty good at I forget the next time I use the grapple.

This is the valve I used. Finding a button is a little more difficult because all of the loader levers are different. I got lucky and could take the handle apart because it split in too and make a hole to install a button, then the shaft was hollow and a great place to run the wires. Have fun with your adventure mine was interesting.
12 VDC 13.2 GPM SAE 8 DOUBLE SELECTOR VALVE

 

[BukitCase]

That's the same valve I bought - I ordered two, and tried recently to get a third - unfortunately, this is the response I got from Surplus center - "sorry, but that was a surplus item and is no longer available, nor will it be. We have no other information on it."

The only types surplus center shows now are dual solenoid, and they're not real clear on exactly how they work.

The nice thing about the one Guesseral linked to is that they STACK - my two will stack, and the default flow is thru BOTH valves to the other side, which will go BACK to the original bucket curl cylinders - then the ports on top will each run their own circuit when I push their respective buttons.

One thing that may help switch life would be a clamping diode across the switch ( or better, across the valve coil) - when you open the circuit, a coil wants to create a big reverse polarity spike and that's usually what takes out switches, contacts, etc - the diode absorbs the spike but still allows the FORWARD current to operate the coil... Steve

 

[J_J]

This double solenoid diverter valve works as good as any other diverter. They have about 218 of these in stock now. $153.

SAE 8 15 GPM DOUBLE SELECTOR VALVE 12 VDC P15544-1

Here is how the valve is connected.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/_MoreSpecs/i9-5117.pdf

 

[kennyd]

We are now selling a custom diverter package, and while it is more money than the one from the Surplus Center, it offers some distinct advantages over it:

• Custom engineered and CNC machined in the USA from a solid billet of 6061 aluminum material.
• Port spacing and placement are optimized for the easiest mounting options and smallest footprint available.
• Includes five 1/4" mounting holes to fit any situation.
• Solenoid coils are rated for constant duty.
• Includes a high quality jacketed wiring harness, with sealed automotive grade connectors placed at the perfect place to facilitate easy loader removal. Dust caps are provided as well to keep connectors clean when unplugged. No more cheap crimp-on connectors or home-brew wiring needed. Just find a 12vdc power source (switched off with the key preferably) for a simple hookup.
• Includes a very simple and effective joystick mounted switch that's waterproof and easy to operate with gloves on. No more makeshift buttons or expensive joystick handles are needed.
• Includes adhesive backed rubber tape for under the switch and valve body, helps keep things in place and protect finishes.
• Includes UV resistant cable/wire/zip ties for neat and tidy installation of wiring.
• Detailed instructions and theory of operation.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

That's the same valve I bought - I ordered two, and tried recently to get a third - unfortunately, this is the response I got from Surplus center - "sorry, but that was a surplus item and is no longer available, nor will it be. We have no other information on it."

The only types surplus center shows now are dual solenoid, and they're not real clear on exactly how they work.

The nice thing about the one Guesseral linked to is that they STACK - my two will stack, and the default flow is thru BOTH valves to the other side, which will go BACK to the original bucket curl cylinders - then the ports on top will each run their own circuit when I push their respective buttons.


One thing that may help switch life would be a clamping diode across the switch ( or better, across the valve coil) - when you open the circuit, a coil wants to create a big reverse polarity spike and that's usually what takes out switches, contacts, etc - the diode absorbs the spike but still allows the FORWARD current to operate the coil... Steve

Steve, if you still want that type of valve, I just happen to know where you can still purchase them. :thumbsup: They do work well when stacking them is required, or at least easier.

 

[davehowell]

Good folks, maybe you can help me... I have a Landpride Hydraulic Post Hole Digger on a B 7800, which the low side of pressure and flow, but within the Landpride post hole digger hydralic specs. When I attach the hydraulic lines to the bucket curl circuit as directed, I lose the bucket function of course, but it seems like the entire digger stalls easily in the ground. (The pump and valve test out at the factory spec, 1980 psi or thereabouts).
Question one: Is there a difference in the hydraulic motor function if the lines were reversed in the bucket curl circuit (something about regenerating side not as powerful?). I have tried to both ways but can't decide if one is really better than the other.
Question 2: Would there be an improvement in digger performance with a diverter or third function valve. (Ie., less pressure loss through fittings and lines.) Which would be better for an augur? I am inclined towards the package at Ken's bucket hooks based on my excellent experience with Ken and his company if that would work.

Thanks

 

[Ductape]

We are now selling a custom diverter package, and while it is more money than the one from the Surplus Center, it offers some distinct advantages over it:

Custom engineered and CNC machined in the USA from a solid billet of 6061 aluminum material.
Port spacing and placement are optimized for the easiest mounting options and smallest footprint available.
Includes five 1/4" mounting holes to fit any situation.
Solenoid coils are rated for constant duty.
Includes a high quality jacketed wiring harness, with sealed automotive grade connectors placed at the perfect place to facilitate easy loader removal. Dust caps are provided as well to keep connectors clean when unplugged. No more cheap crimp-on connectors or home-brew wiring needed. Just find a 12vdc power source (switched off with the key preferably) for a simple hookup.
Includes a very simple and effective joystick mounted switch that's waterproof and easy to operate with gloves on. No more makeshift buttons or expensive joystick handles are needed.
Includes adhesive backed rubber tape for under the switch and valve body, helps keep things in place and protect finishes.
Includes UV resistant cable/wire/zip ties for neat and tidy installation of wiring.
Detailed instructions and theory of operation.

That's nice...... I like the sealed connectors !

 

[kennyd]

Good folks, maybe you can help me... I have a Landpride Hydraulic Post Hole Digger on a B 7800, which the low side of pressure and flow, but within the Landpride post hole digger hydralic specs. When I attach the hydraulic lines to the bucket curl circuit as directed, I lose the bucket function of course, but it seems like the entire digger stalls easily in the ground. (The pump and valve test out at the factory spec, 1980 psi or thereabouts).
Question one: Is there a difference in the hydraulic motor function if the lines were reversed in the bucket curl circuit (something about regenerating side not as powerful?). I have tried to both ways but can't decide if one is really better than the other.
Question 2: Would there be an improvement in digger performance with a diverter or third function valve. (Ie., less pressure loss through fittings and lines.) Which would be better for an augur? I am inclined towards the package at Ken's bucket hooks based on my excellent experience with Ken and his company if that would work.

Thanks

Dave, unfortunately switching the lines, or using one valve over the other will not help your situation much, low flow and pressure are what's causing your HPHD to easily stall.

 

[Guesseral]

This double solenoid diverter valve works as good as any other diverter. They have about 218 of these in stock now. $153.

SAE 8 15 GPM DOUBLE SELECTOR VALVE 12 VDC P15544-1

Here is how the valve is connected.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/_MoreSpecs/i9-5117.pdf

Where you are correct as usual it really seems like way more work that the other valve, but I guess you have to work with what is available.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Where you are correct as usual it really seems like way more work that the other valve, but I guess you have to work with what is available.

The Bosch diverter valve is still available, just not through Surplus Center. :thumbsup:

 

[J_J]

Good folks, maybe you can help me... I have a Landpride Hydraulic Post Hole Digger on a B 7800, which the low side of pressure and flow, but within the Landpride post hole digger hydralic specs. When I attach the hydraulic lines to the bucket curl circuit as directed, I lose the bucket function of course, but it seems like the entire digger stalls easily in the ground. (The pump and valve test out at the factory spec, 1980 psi or thereabouts).
Question one: Is there a difference in the hydraulic motor function if the lines were reversed in the bucket curl circuit (something about regenerating side not as powerful?). I have tried to both ways but can't decide if one is really better than the other.
Question 2: Would there be an improvement in digger performance with a diverter or third function valve. (Ie., less pressure loss through fittings and lines.) Which would be better for an augur? I am inclined towards the package at Ken's bucket hooks based on my excellent experience with Ken and his company if that would work.

Thanks

Do you have a hyd gage in the hyd system?

When your hyd post hole digger stalls out, does the gage reflect the relief valve set pressure.

Your force is limited by pressure and the rpm by the GPM. Your hyd motor could be bypassing also causing a loss in pressure.



You could do a little better using a PTO pump, with more pressure and GPM.

 

[J_J]

Where you are correct as usual it really seems like way more work that the other valve, but I guess you have to work with what is available.

Three wires and six hoses?????????