So much for a Nissan Leaf!

[houstonscott]

Electric cars have been around longer than global warming was raised as a justification. My grandfather, an electrical engineer, worked on a prototype electric car in the 40s and 50s.

And they have all failed, because a car is freedom to move around, not be on a cord. Horse bets electric. HS

 

[BobRip]

The main thing is the most inefficient thing you could possibly do with your fuel is to change it into electricity then put it into a battery then take it out to use in an electric car. That is crazy inefficient, modern cars are one of the most efficient fuel burning machines ever conceived, and are far more clean than any power plant. Electric cars can never match burning the fuel in the vehicle directly, it's not possible. HS

Modern gasoline car engines run about 25% to 30% efficient. Steam turbines used in power generation plants run about 40% and combines cycle which used gas turbines and steam turbines run about 60%. It is much easier to get high efficiency from a fixed plant since you can have multiple stages of a system. Google engine efficiency in Wikopedia for details. Engine efficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Oh here it is. You could get more efficiency from gasoline by taking waste heat from the exhaust and running a turbine, but this adds weight and cost.

 

[sseelhoff]

And they have all failed, because a car is freedom to move around, not be on a cord. Horse bets electric. HS

My horse would take about 45 minutes to 1 hour to get into town (6 miles) and has no radio or air conditioning. If I had an electric car, I dare say it would be quicker and more comfortable. Not as much fun, I grant you, but...

I still don't get why it has to be one versus the other. EVs have their place, as do regular cars. Not sure why the hostility toward the segment. Buy and use what you want.

 

[Loren49]

Well supported???????? opinion. Hard to dispute your facts.
Energy Dept. Reports: U.S. Wind Energy Production and Manufacturing Reaches Record Highs | Department of Energy
The Energy Department released two new reports today showcasing record growth across the U.S. wind market -- increasing America's share of clean, renewable energy and supporting tens of thousands of jobs nationwide. According to these reports, the United States continues to be one of the world's largest and fastest growing wind markets. In 2012, wind energy became the number one source of new U.S. electricity generation capacity for the first time representing 43 percent of all new electric additions and accounting for $25 billion in U.S. investment.

Last year, over 13 gigawatts (GW) of new wind power capacity were added to the U.S. grid nearly double the wind capacity deployed in 2011. This tremendous growth helped America's total wind power capacity surpass 60 GW at the end of 2012 representing enough capacity to power more than 15 million homes each year, or as many homes as in California and Washington state combined.

American wind power reaches major power generation milestones in 2013

At the same time, the proportion of wind turbine components such as towers, blades, and gears made in America has increased dramatically. The report estimates seventy-two percent of the wind turbine equipment installed in the U.S. last year was made by domestic manufacturers, nearly tripling from 25 percent in 2006-2007.



The geographic diversity and abundance of American wind installations is a reflection of the United States' strong wind resource. In a 2010 study, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory reported over 10 million MW of wind resource in the U.S., enough to power the equivalent of the nation's total electricity needs 10 times over.
The wind energy industry started 2014 with a record 12,000 MW of wind project capacity under construction and will deliver even more clean and affordable energy to our nation's electricity generation portfolio.

Renewables Provide 88 Percent of New US Electrical Generating Capacity in May 2014

You must have an unorthodox definition of dead?:confused2:

Wind Farm Bird Deaths vs Fossil Fuel & Nuclear Power Bird Deaths | CleanTechnica

November 26th, 2013 by Zachary Shahan

This article was jointly written by one of CleanTechnic's readers and Zachary Shahan.

Itç—´ a shame when a beautiful (or even an ugly) animal dies. Itç—´ a shame that wind turbines do indeed kill birds. However, every source of electricity we have kills some number of birds. And while solar panels may fare better than anything else, itç—´ actually clear (and uplifting) that wind turbines fare better than nuclear or fossil-fueled power plants on this front.

Hereç—´ some info on bird kills per gigawatt-hour (GWh) of electricity produced:

Wind farms kill roughly 0.27 birds per GWh.
Nuclear plants kill about 0.6 birds per GWh. (2.2x wind)
Fossil-fueled power stations kill about 9.4 birds per GWh. (34.8x wind)


Its so easy to use Google to get a few facts. (or at least present information that can be accepted or challenged) Opinions are ok but they carry almost no weight in a dispute no matter how strongly you believe.

Loren

 

[dave1949]

Over a grid-sized area wind power is manageable up to around 20% of the base load. Some places, like Denmark, have exceeded that. Wind is as reliable as the ability to forecast it. Those capabilities are getting more attention now that the need is there for more accuracy on shorter time frames.

The goal is not to power the country with wind, it is to replace as much fossil fuel as possible. 20% is nothing to sneeze at. Coal, with its difficulty of inefficient start-up and idle, is on its way out anyways. It makes no sense to evaluate or wrap other technologies around one that is nearly dead. Would you say modern vehicles are no good because there is no way to hitch a team to them and the windshield prevents the use of reins?

The noise issues with wind are quite variable depending on the turbine, prevailing wind direction, the season and the terrain. Loren says he doesn't hear the turbine at 1200', you say you hear it at a mile--I believe both of you. That is a turbine siting issue.

Solar and wind are "toxic" industries? Compared to what and by how much? Everything has a level of toxicity and there are no free energy lunches, some are much cheaper than others though.

 

[houstonscott]

Modern gasoline car engines run about 25% to 30% efficient. Steam turbines used in power generation plants run about 40% and combines cycle which used gas turbines and steam turbines run about 60%. It is much easier to get high efficiency from a fixed plant since you can have multiple stages of a system. Google engine efficiency in Wikopedia for details. Engine efficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Oh here it is. You could get more efficiency from gasoline by taking waste heat from the exhaust and running a turbine, but this adds weight and cost.

You missed the losses in transmission, step downed three or four times, inverted, put into battery, taken out, the inefficients are staggering. Electric is for when the local environment requires zero emissions, nothing else. HS.

 

[houstonscott]

My horse would take about 45 minutes to 1 hour to get into town (6 miles) and has no radio or air conditioning. If I had an electric car, I dare say it would be quicker and more comfortable. Not as much fun, I grant you, but... I still don't get why it has to be one versus the other. EVs have their place, as do regular cars. Not sure why the hostility toward the segment. Buy and use what you want.

I agree, just don't ask me or our government to push it for a hoax. HS

 

[Pilot]

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On PBS this morning Autoline had an interesting discussion on EV and Hybrid vehicles and where the industry and developments are headed. They seem to not be in line with the "so much for the Nissan Leaf" attitude.

Loren

April 2014 sales as reported by NADA for all new cars were 1.4 million. 6,000 sales is insignificant, 0.4% of the total market and counts for nothing. Yes, you can buy a heavily subsidized EV for a kinda competitive price, and your neighbors and other taxpayers will subsidize your charging station, but without the subsidies would you actually buy one? Some would, sure, but not enough to keep the cars in production. Personally, I can't see how Nissan can make any money on the Leafs (leaves?) they sell now. And if they sold a lot of them and lost money on each, how long will they keep the car in production?

Also, when you get up into the 40+ mpg range, the cost saving of a little better mileage becomes insignificant. Going from 48 mpg (2013 Prius) to 100 mpg (supposed Leaf equivalent) saves about $475 per year (about $4 per day--how much do you spend at Starbucks? And with that savings you give up range and refueling convenience--what happens when you forget to plug in your leaf?

 

[Loren49]

April 2014 sales as reported by NADA for all new cars were 1.4 million. 6,000 sales is insignificant, 0.4% of the total market and counts for nothing. Yes, you can buy a heavily subsidized EV for a kinda competitive price, and your neighbors and other taxpayers will subsidize your charging station, but without the subsidies would you actually buy one? Some would, sure, but not enough to keep the cars in production. Personally, I can't see how Nissan can make any money on the Leafs (leaves?) they sell now. And if they sold a lot of them and lost money on each, how long will they keep the car in production?

Also, when you get up into the 40 mpg range, the cost saving of a little better mileage becomes insignificant. Going from 48 mpg (2013 Prius) to 100 mpg (supposed Leaf equivalent) saves about $475 per year (about $4 per day--how much do you spend at Starbucks? And with that savings you give up range and refueling convenience--what happens when you forget to plug in your leaf?

No dispute that 6,600 units is a drop in the bucket yet an increase of over 100% in sales is notable. Subsidies make any comparison a little murky. They have been noted earlier in this thread along with hidden costs (pollution, health issues, smog, CO2 -an issue to scientists)

I've never been to Starbucks, but I do visit Lloyds of Lowville, a local diner, for a $1.50 coffee regularly. It seems that people will be able to figure out what to do if they forget to plug in the car. I suppose the first cars had trouble finding a filling station also. Time will tell.

I would like to own a hybrid though so far its more likely my next car will be a small good mileage vehicle. An EV is out for me right now but I predict their use will continue to increase.

Loren

 

[k0ua]

How do you charge your Leaf from you home Solar Voltaic array? Do you have a large battery bank that you charge up and then when you get home you discharge the battery bank into the Leaf thru an Inverter to make the AC the Leaf needs? Or do you have a grid tied solar array, and actually use the power grid to charge it?. Remember you Leaf is going to be at work during the daytime when the sun is shining and at home at night when it is not shining. Or do you just charge it on Saturday and Sunday?