Water line trench

boggen · Aug 7, 2014

EddieWalker said:
I agree. Seems like there are a lot of examples of those who like to use bigger pipes and are happy with them, but nobody who has used the same sized pipe. I'm not a fan of spending more money for something that I cannot notice the difference by spending more money. Reminds me of a buddy that I used to bike ride with. He spent $600 for a seat that was 2 oz lighter then what he had before. He was still the last one there. Spending more without any noticeable improvement is always something I try to shy away from.

How many houses have a 5/8 inch tap? Tens of millions. I wouldn't think twice about running a half in line several hundred feet.

Eddie

cheap swimming pools from local store, and filling them, filling up sprayer tank, using lawn sprinklers.... it makes a large difference. in overall amount of time to fill pool/tank up. and getting a larger spray pattern from lawn sprinklers.

and i can notice difference in pressure washers as well. what may mean peeling paint off something and actually splintering wood and holding nozzle a couple inchs away. vs having to keep nozzle 1/2" to 1/4" off of stuff to get same results of small size pipe.

some perspective... the well pump on the old small lines that i had, even small size garden hose diameters. my well pump will kick on/off every few minutes running small pipe/hose. running larger pipe/hose. the well pump stays running. and i get more GPM of water. the difference being the small lines were to restrictive.

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water lines are generally a one time expensive for many many years to come. spend little extra during install. for benefits to come long term.

ultrarunner · Aug 7, 2014

Time will move a lot of water...

We were out hand watering at the ranch and someone left a garden hose on overnight... 20,000 gallon tank was dry and mud in the parking area.

The pressure is 50 psi gravity... the flow is not great because every hose turned on cuts the flow by 50%... so with three hoses on... the water is little more than a trickle... actually, I think this is what happened... hoses were left running in the planted areas and when they were all turned off but one... the one left on was flowing at full.

LD1 · Aug 7, 2014

Didnt read all of the posts, but I would go deeper too.

Technically, I think the frost line in this area is 42" or so. Not that it gets that deep, but better safe than sorry. I certainly wouldnt want to go 24".

Also, if a frost free hydrant, most have a weep hole in the bottom to let the water drain back out of the vertical pipe. So when installing, backfill with a few 5-gal buckets full of stone around the hydrant. It will allow the water to dissipate better.

FTG-05 · Aug 7, 2014

Do it right the first time and install a bigger line than you think you will need. Pipe is cheap compared to either a) having to do it again or b) condemning yourself (and whoever else ends with the property) for all time due to an underperforming system.

oldpilgrim · Aug 7, 2014

what should I look out for?

other pipes, wires and ground wasps!

BeezFun · Aug 7, 2014

ultrarunner said:
Time will move a lot of water...

We were out hand watering at the ranch and someone left a garden hose on overnight... 20,000 gallon tank was dry and mud in the parking area.

The pressure is 50 psi gravity... the flow is not great because every hose turned on cuts the flow by 50%... so with three hoses on... the water is little more than a trickle... actually, I think this is what happened... hoses were left running in the planted areas and when they were all turned off but one... the one left on was flowing at full.

Wow, thats quite a tank. To get 50psi from gravity the tank would need to be 125 feet in the air. At 8# per gallon, that's 160,000 pounds of water. Is this tank on the edge of a cliff by any chance?

The flow does make sense, you'd get about 10-15gpm of flow with 50psi head pressure, so that's between 15,000-22,000 gallons over 24 hours.

ultrarunner · Aug 7, 2014

The tank is spring fed and on the top of the hill on the back 40... really, there is a back 40.

The spring is two miles away up the mountain from the tank and the land has deeded water rights dating back to 1860...

Flow is dismal at the home stead... the old 2" galvanized line with sections of 1.5" plastic repairs is about 50% surface run in the rocky area. Really cobbled together.

I'm thinking he is going to need to set aside a few dollars to upgrade... near the house the secondary tank is 2,000 gallons.

Two smaller homes on land sold off years ago from the ranch also have 600 gallon per day water rights... so nobody had water.

Can't think of any options other than metal for the exposed portions of line coming down the mountain...

No pumps anywhere which is nice...

FTG-05 · Aug 7, 2014

All of which has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Unless, of course, the OP wants to sit around for +24 hours so he can water his petunias or whatever.

We're talking about getting water out of an engineered system - on a timely basis- not a water leak or someone left a valve open scenario.

Personally, I'm not going to design either on the most-probably-false assumptions - of "it's good enough" or "this is all I need", I'm going to design bases on what the current system is capable of delivering and getting the most bang for my buck.

People who design based on the lowest cost only usually end up with regret, either with themselves or the people who have to live with their system afterwards.

nc redneck · Aug 7, 2014

A lot depends on starting pressure and source. My rental property has 3/4 line about 500 to 600 feet from tap. I always feel like I have a Fire Hose in my hand compared to home with well and 3/4 hp pump set at 55 PSI.

ultrarunner · Aug 7, 2014

FTG-05 said:
All of which has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Unless, of course, the OP wants to sit around for +24 hours so he can water his petunias or whatever.

We're talking about getting water out of an engineered system - on a timely basis- not a water leak or someone left a valve open scenario.

Personally, I'm not going to design either on the most-probably-false assumptions - of "it's good enough" or "this is all I need", I'm going to design bases on what the current system is capable of delivering and getting the most bang for my buck.

People who design based on the lowest cost only usually end up with regret, either with themselves or the people who have to live with their system afterwards.

At the plant we actually replaced a large line with a smaller one.

The building at the far corner of the property always had nasty water... old 2" iron underground line that was 850 feet long.

The plant engineer ran 3/4 PEX through the old line and no more foul smelling water.

Depending on demand, use, etc... a line too big can pose it's own set of problems.

DuckSlayer1017 · Aug 11, 2014

In Michigan this last winter a lot of people went months without water because their main feed into the house froze. The majority of the ones I heard about were on city water but all the feeds were 42" down. Don't think that the frost can't get down that deep in a really cold winter like we had in 2014.

EddieWalker · Aug 12, 2014

A big part of being a contractor is doing the job right for the best price. The requirements for this are one water line 170 away from the house. Going bigger has some advantages, but it also have some negatives. Cost is one of those things. Upgrading to a bigger line isn't a huge expense, but will he notice the difference at the end of the day? I don't think so. Not for this. If he where running the line to supply water to a cabin or something with multiple needs, then that might be different, depending on what he has to start out with.

I have several hundred foot hoses. I regularly hook them up together to get more length with the result of a 200 foot run. I have never measured my water pressure at the end of the hose, but know that my house water pressure is set for 60 pounds. I cannot tell the difference between the water pressure coming out from the 200 feet of hose to what it's like coming out of the water spicket at the house.

Eddie

GPintheMitten · Aug 12, 2014

You mention that you are a contractor in your response as too offer that your advice is more informed than others.
That's nice that you don't think he will have a problem. But what guarantee do you offer with your professional contractor advice. And what data do you use to make this professional advice.

The cost to redo and the frustration of not having satisfactory results is not worth it.

And I can't believe a professional would recommend such a shallow bury depth.
You say it won't burst if it freezes. Two things, who wants it subject to freezing, and it can burst. This from Wikipedia

"All pipes, including this copper exterior valve as well as PEX, can burst from freezing, although several reports suggest that PEX takes longer to burst under freezing conditions."

Cross-linked polyethylene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EddieWalker · Aug 12, 2014

My advice is based on my experience. If you want to be an *****, that's fine. Dig the trench as deep as you want. For what the OP is wanting, I feel he would be fine with 2 feet, but if conditions warrant, it's pretty easy going deeper. In the end, will he notice any measureable difference going from half inch pex to a larger diameter. I say he wont.

Eddie

GPintheMitten · Aug 12, 2014

I'm not being a asterisk. I'm just concerned about bad advice that.might be taken as expertise.

oldpilgrim · Aug 12, 2014

Texas - 2 feet deep is ok.
Pa - 2 ft deep is not ok.

GPintheMitten · Aug 12, 2014

oldpilgrim said:
Texas - 2 feet deep is ok.
Pa - 2 ft deep is not ok.

Exactly.

FTG-05 · Aug 12, 2014

My local Lowe's prices:

1/2" PVC 10' long: $1.94

1" PVC 10' long: $3.38

Difference: $1.44 per 10' length of pipe.

250 feet divided by 10 = 25

25 x $1.44 = $36. Plus add the cost of fitting's, didn't estimate it. I also didn't check other alternatives like rolls of tubing or 20' lengths, both of which should be even cheaper. But this illustrates why the cost of installation far outweighs the cost difference in pipe sizes. Using this example, it makes no sense whatsoever - to me - to install 1/2" pipe vs. 1".

GPintheMitten · Aug 12, 2014

Typically people use rolled plastic pipe like this. This is 400 foot long by 3/4" cost $140 just to give an example. But probably could be ordered in 200 foot rolls for a little less.

Shop ADS 3/4-in x 400-ft 160-PSI Plastic Coil Pipe at Lowes.com

Here's a pdf from the Pennsylvania Housing Research Center that discusses depth of footings which would be the same that I would use for buried water pipe. There's a chart showing footings required for manufactured housing without skirting which I think would be some good numbers to use. The chart shows different depths for different areas of Pennsylvania. I don't know what county the OP is in but these data are based on research. The shallowest is 36" and the deepest is 54"

http://www.engr.psu.edu/phrc/pubs/TB0101.pdf