Please help me explain why someone should buy a non-DPF tractor.

[Grateful11]

They have been looking at a Kubota MX5100 or an MX5200. The 5100 supposedly only has an EGR and is interim Tier 4, the 5200 has an Common Rail and a DPF and is full Tier 4. The 5100 has an EGR but not sure if it has the Common Rail stuff. I'm no diesel mechanic and they make me research all this stuff for them. So could someone explain to me in "layman's terms" so I can explain to them why it would be better to get the 5100 over the 5200 or is going to make that much difference, I think it will because of all the Regen stuff I've been reading about. There's about a $3000 difference between the 2 tractors. They are wanting Hydrostat, Skid Steer style Loader, 3rd Function, and at least one set of rear remotes and thinking about going with R1's over R4's like they have on the Kubota L3940. They need another small loader tractor.

BTW: It's taken me days to find what few MX5100's are left out there. Most dealers don't want to let go of what they have for transfer so we may have to go a ways to get one. One dealer in Ohio has 5.

 

[candoarms]

The Tier 4 (final) engines are nothing more than tree hugger pacifiers. You pay a whole lot of money when you make a greenie-weenie smile.

If you can find a Kubota with an interim Tier 4 engine, or something built just a couple of years ago, you'll be very happy with it. There's no need to spend the extra money on the Final version of the Tier 4 engine, nor is there any reason to have to shell out the extra bucks for the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) when doing your routine maintenance.

Hope this helps.

Joel

 

[fluxed]

There are multiple reasons as follows:

1). Common rail inection systems are more sensitive to water and dirt. CR requires high quality and water free fuel. Smaller storage tanks commonly found on farms are notorious for water and dirt contamination. The old, lower pressure mechanical full systems have a higher tolerance for poor fuel. Coupled to a lower replacement and repair cost for the mechanical, the CR becomes less attractive.

2) DPF is a long term headache. They eventually clog, even with regeneration cycles.
Most designs call for under 300 millibar restriction for optimal performance.

3) EGR systems add more complexity. They often clog, the valves fail, and the cooled types can crack, leaking coolant or exhaust gas or both. I understand the 5100 is so equipped, but because of the grief these systems cause some people I figured I might as well add it in.

The skinny is; these systems add more failure points. We have not begun to speak about DEF systems, their tanks, mixing valves and selective catalyst components.

Reliability is going to be an issue. I am not familiar with the 5200, so some of these components may not exist on them.

For the record I don't hate the ideas behind the systems. My issue is their durability. Many systems were rushed or they are poor copies of terrible designs to begin with.

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

My simple way of looking at it (and explaining it) is that the MX5100 is tried and true and, as far as I know, there are no known bugs with it.

The MX5200 may turn out to be the greatest tractor ever in the history of ever, but the simple fact is that you're buying "Version 1.0" of a new system that hasn't had sufficient field/use time to have any bugs worked out of it.

Personally, I wouldn't want to pay a premium to be a beta tester for a Tier 4 system.

 

[oosik]

I think Pappy has said it best. Why would anybody want to spend extra money for a tractor that is not tired & true and is assured to have problems that are always going to be associated with the introduction of a new and more complicated model.

I got one of the very last M6040 that came into this part of the world and am so glad I didn't wait for the M6060.

Listen to what we are telling you, Grateful11, you will be very glad you did - on down the road.

My God - I hope "they" realize and appreciate the work it took for you to find an MX5100.

 

[Looking4new]

DEF systems in Class 8 trucks were prone to freezing up in deep cold winters until heaters were installed in them.
DEF is just one more thing to buy and check when you fuel up and one more thing to screw up when things don't work properly.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

They have been looking at a Kubota MX5100 or an MX5200. The 5100 supposedly only has an EGR and is interim Tier 4, the 5200 has an Common Rail and a DPF and is full Tier 4. The 5100 has an EGR but not sure if it has the Common Rail stuff. I'm no diesel mechanic and they make me research all this stuff for them. So could someone explain to me in "layman's terms" so I can explain to them why it would be better to get the 5100 over the 5200 or is going to make that much difference, I think it will because of all the Regen stuff I've been reading about. There's about a $3000 difference between the 2 tractors. They are wanting Hydrostat, Skid Steer style Loader, 3rd Function, and at least one set of rear remotes and thinking about going with R1's over R4's like they have on the Kubota L3940. They need another small loader tractor.

BTW: It's taken me days to find what few MX5100's are left out there. Most dealers don't want to let go of what they have for transfer so we may have to go a ways to get one. One dealer in Ohio has 5.

I have the MX 5100, pre tier iv. It is a beast and just a great tractor over all. I also just bought an L3301 tier iv. Only have 3 hours on it, so can't report on the regen. The dealer assured me I will probably never notice the difference. Here's hoping he was right...View attachment 414080View attachment 414081

 

[Grateful11]

I have the MX 5100, pre tier iv. It is a beast and just a great tractor over all. I also just bought an L3301 tier iv. Only have 3 hours on it, so can't report on the regen. The dealer assured me I will probably never notice the difference. Here's hoping he was right...View attachment 414080View attachment 414081

Does your MX5100 have an EGR?
Thanks

 

[swlman2]

Somebody out there,will soon delete the dpf on a tractor, right?

 

[candoarms]

Swlman2,

I'm sure you're right.

Joel

 

[Grateful11]

I don't see why it couldn't be done. As long as it was gutted and you could get the sensors to read 0% on the DPF all the time but there may be way more to it than that. It's not like it's a car that some states require inspection, not yet that is.

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

I don't see why it couldn't be done. As long as it was gutted and you could get the sensors to read 0% on the DPF all the time but there may be way more to it than that. It's not like it's a car that some states require inspection, not yet that is.

Of course, Kubota would use that as an excuse to void your warranty and deny any warranty claims. Everything comes with a cost.

 

[Grateful11]

Of course, Kubota would use that as an excuse to void your warranty and deny any warranty claims. Everything comes with a cost.

I'd never attempt something like that until it was out of warranty.

 

[sd455dan]

Isn't the MX5200 the one that has 2 new owners with freezing problems resulting in damaged engines in the owning operating section?

Hopefully all of the ones sold from now on out will have the update kit installed... or this might be a good reason to save some money and get a 5100 model

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

I don't see why it couldn't be done. As long as it was gutted and you could get the sensors to read 0% on the DPF all the time but there may be way more to it than that. It's not like it's a car that some states require inspection, not yet that is.

we've talked with the engineers about this. They say it would be very complex and difficult to pull off. With the limited market for such modifications, I don't think it will be to anyones benefit to work that out.

Now what I would like to see, would be kits for tractors like the B2650 and L2501 that are low HP, non-DPF models. You could boost these up much easier than trying to do a DPF delete.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

take a look at this post
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/328971-regeneration-mode.html

 

[MHarryE]

Antique fuel injection systems on the older engines didn't change much in 70 years so it's easy to work on. My father owned an International Harvester dealership from 1939 to 1952. I still have his last service manual - it covered all tractors in one book. The diesel injection system in the 1951 WD-9 is not much different than the systems before they started improving fuel burn, but that varies by model. For example, the fuel injection pressure on the WD-9 differs little from that of my L5740 (reference workshop manuals on both). Remembering our TD-6, TD-9, and some WD-9s dad sold, the smoke output is similar. Never have found a good cleaner to get the soot off the loader frame of the L5740. Once when I finished talking to my partner and started my engine forgetting he was standing near the exhaust discharge, the blast of smoke from tarting triggered an asthma attack - fortunately he had is emergency inhaler. To clean the exhaust most have gone to a high pressure pump capable of about 30,000 psi (book value on my L5740 is 2,400 psi) which breaks the droplets into a much finer size but requires precision manufacturing and clean fuel. In addition the injectors now incorporate a piezoelectric control that allows multiple injections as the piston strokes, but the simple old injectors gave one good pfft and that was it. It relied on swirling air to distribute the fire/heat that expands the air pressing on the piston. In automobile terms the old fuel system is not unlike a Model T carburetor as compared to today's individual direct injectors. Like a Model T the older diesels are relatively easy to work on but remember that black smoke is unburned hydrocarbons, the fuel you payed for, going out the exhaust. Not saying a DPF cleaning exhaust particles means all those $$$ are saved because they end up in the DPF. The DPF, however, is not capable of handling the massive amounts of soot produced by older technology injection systems. There will be growing pains just like the auto industry went through. My first fuel injected cars were 1988 and 1989 Pontiacs and the injectors were not durable but the fuel economy gain over the cars they replaced was impressive. Now my latest cars and my pickup have double the miles those first injected cars had and still no problem. So if you don't feel comfortable with a DPF, I understand there are still plenty of old style tractors sitting around. Some say, however, they command a premium price. From personal experience, however, that gas not proved to be true. When I wanted to trade my L5740 on a L6060, the dealer me a worse deal than he did when I traded a 10 year old L3710 on my L5740.

 

[Grateful11]

I've finally found a dealer that has 2 MX5100 HST's but is still quite a ways away and we will be paying them a visit this week to see what kind of deal we can cut.

My wife has been reading over this thread and threads I posted elsewhere trying to convince them they need to move on this now and not wait if they want to stay away from the DPF. This tractor will be operated in sheds and stables with hay and straw and like the L3940 will have a constant intake of hay dust, radiator screen can get clogged in no time, and unless it's going to be turned off and on 5 or 6 times a day in a 30-45 minute period everyday it sounds like there's going to be a lot leaving the throttle turned up. Will also not be unusual to run it hard loading a 155 bushel manure spreader sometimes 15-20 in a given period or cleaning a concrete cow lot of about 6000-8000 sq.ft.

I appreciate all the great info on this. I hope and I'm sure many others do also that with time this will get worked out and something better to control the emissions will come along, it happened with road vehicles after many years of trial and error. We did look at the Mahindra's briefly with their DOC system but this is a full time working cattle farm with 2 full-time employees, wife and son and the equipment here needs to ready and willing at all times. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Mahindras but when you're on a lot with tractors leaking and drawbars not even installed correctly it makes on wonder what kind of service dept. the dealer has.

If anyone has anything else to add it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Leejohn]

Quote "Never have found a good cleaner to get the soot off the loader frame of the L5740."


1 cup white wall cleaner to 1 qt. water, then wipe with very wet rag.

 

[Grateful11]

Diluted Purple Power will clean that black it off our L3940 loader. Usually cut it 50/50, some of that stuff will take paint off full strength. I've thought about elbowing the exhaust down just to get it to stop.