Electricians: can neutral be anything but white?

   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white?
  • Thread Starter
#101  
Two 8ft or 10ft ground rods or a 8ft deep buried ground plate and bare #6 copper to the ground lug in the breaker panel.
The neutral bar should float free of ground on it's own insulated bar.
I missed this earlier.

So you are saying I should NOT install the green bonding screw, and install a separate ground bar to the case?

Care to explain why?
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #102  
hello just a bystander thats been following this for awhile. I don't understand how if you loose the neutral you will have 220 anywhere but at the breaker. it seems to me as it would just be an open circuit and the plugs down stream of the open would not work, yes the two hot wires would have the potintial of 220 but since they terminate at different plugs I don't see how his tools or anything would have 220 on it.
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #103  
Neutral and ground were not shared or are not supposed to be. The neutral is for neutral current only. The ground system is to only hold everything connected to it , to as close to true earth potential as possible.
They weren't I should have added an "a" between two words.
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #104  
I missed this earlier.

So you are saying I should NOT install the green bonding screw, and install a separate ground bar to the case?

Care to explain why?

Because the ground system is not supposed to carry neutral current.
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #105  
hello just a bystander thats been following this for awhile. I don't understand how if you loose the neutral you will have 220 anywhere but at the breaker. it seems to me as it would just be an open circuit and the plugs down stream of the open would not work, yes the two hot wires would have the potintial of 220 but since they terminate at different plugs I don't see how his tools or anything would have 220 on it.
In the ref case there are 2 opposite HOTS sharing a neutral, and used for 2 separate 110V circuits.

... But theyre not really separate since both sides connect to the neutral thru their respective loads [lights, motors, heaters, etc]. Thus the hot can cross to the neutral at any loaded outlet. If that neutral is open its potential rises to 110V. Now, if you measure from the opposite phase hot to that neutral you get 220V. That max voltage is essentially on an open circuit since the meter draws only a few micro amps. If you put a real load on the 2nd side, in place of the meter, the 220V would split proportionally according the resistance of the loads on each side. The sum of the Vs would be 220 but each load would see less than 220.
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #106  
I missed this earlier.

So you are saying I should NOT install the green bonding screw, and install a separate ground bar to the case?

Care to explain why?
all subpanels HAVE to have separate ground busses. Do not connect neutral and grounds together. Thats why we run4 wires between buildings now days.
In the past we only ran 3 and re-established a new ground at sub panel
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #107  
An ungrounded system is used by some co-ops but it is very rare. MNG systems (where the neutral is grounded at multiple points) is what probably 90% of you have. It is important to know which system you are on. In other words, you're both right.
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #108  
hello just a bystander thats been following this for awhile. I don't understand how if you loose the neutral you will have 220 anywhere but at the breaker. it seems to me as it would just be an open circuit and the plugs down stream of the open would not work, yes the two hot wires would have the potintial of 220 but since they terminate at different plugs I don't see how his tools or anything would have 220 on it.
I know it doesnt make sence, but it does happen. Ive had to trace down so many of these issues over the years i want to scream.
Last year an avista crew working on a transformer dropped a neutral load on a new subdivision in post falls. I was called to fix some issues after it happened. They lost every major appliance....fried. Any light that was on fried....the original electrician ran 12/3 circuits to kitchen, baths, etc to save money.

Same with other houses in neighborhood. A carpenters table saw motor fried.

Avista paid for all repairs. Its the main flaw with edison circuits. Will always be

Thats why i havnt been wiring them like that for a long time. Heck, in 3phase commercial we used to always run what was called a full boat.... On 240 system we ran black,red,blue,green and one white. That was good for 3 separate circuits. Now i doubt youll find a contractor around that does that. Especially with linear load issues. Some guys still wire houses with 12/3 and 14/3.... But i refuse to
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #109  
I know it doesnt make sence, but it does happen. Ive had to trace down so many of these issues over the years i want to scream.
Last year an avista crew working on a transformer dropped a neutral load on a new subdivision in post falls. I was called to fix some issues after it happened. They lost every major appliance....fried. Any light that was on fried....the original electrician ran 12/3 circuits to kitchen, baths, etc to save money.

Same with other houses in neighborhood. A carpenters table saw motor fried.

Avista paid for all repairs. Its the main flaw with edison circuits. Will always be

Thats why i havnt been wiring them like that for a long time. Heck, in 3phase commercial we used to always run what was called a full boat.... On 240 system we ran black,red,blue,green and one white. That was good for 3 separate circuits. Now i doubt youll find a contractor around that does that. Especially with linear load issues. Some guys still wire houses with 12/3 and 14/3.... But i refuse to

I'm with you on this and as someone who still works in the trade from time to time, I applaud you for being hard-headed on some things. I am the same way. I'll walk away from a job if the customer refuses to take sound advice from an experienced perspective because 9 times out of 10 there is trouble coming sooner or later and they will blame me.
Now, about the 220V going through 110 appliances, I have seen it happen and do over $160,000 damage in a hotel resort I was working on. The plumbing contractor cut the neutral in the main with a backhoe and every TV, phone and clock radio was fried. There was not a single shared neutral in the place. And it is not necessary to have shared neutral to get the 220 if the neutral is severed before the breaker box in the circuit. Every appliance that is turned on will act as a pathway for the two phases to re-unite.
 
   / Electricians: can neutral be anything but white? #110  
hello just a bystander thats been following this for awhile. I don't understand how if you loose the neutral you will have 220 anywhere but at the breaker. it seems to me as it would just be an open circuit and the plugs down stream of the open would not work, yes the two hot wires would have the potintial of 220 but since they terminate at different plugs I don't see how his tools or anything would have 220 on it.

I know it doesnt make sence, but it does happen. Ive had to trace down so many of these issues over the years i want to scream.
Last year an avista crew working on a transformer dropped a neutral load on a new subdivision in post falls. I was called to fix some issues after it happened. They lost every major appliance....fried. Any light that was on fried....the original electrician ran 12/3 circuits to kitchen, baths, etc to save money.

Same with other houses in neighborhood. A carpenters table saw motor fried.

Avista paid for all repairs. Its the main flaw with edison circuits. Will always be

Thats why i havnt been wiring them like that for a long time. Heck, in 3phase commercial we used to always run what was called a full boat.... On 240 system we ran black,red,blue,green and one white. That was good for 3 separate circuits. Now i doubt youll find a contractor around that does that. Especially with linear load issues. Some guys still wire houses with 12/3 and 14/3.... But i refuse to

I'm with you on this and as someone who still works in the trade from time to time, I applaud you for being hard-headed on some things. I am the same way. I'll walk away from a job if the customer refuses to take sound advice from an experienced perspective because 9 times out of 10 there is trouble coming sooner or later and they will blame me.
Now, about the 220V going through 110 appliances, I have seen it happen and do over $160,000 damage in a hotel resort I was working on. The plumbing contractor cut the neutral in the main with a backhoe and every TV, phone and clock radio was fried. There was not a single shared neutral in the place. And it is not necessary to have shared neutral to get the 220 if the neutral is severed before the breaker box in the circuit. Every appliance that is turned on will act as a pathway for the two phases to re-unite.

In the ref case there are 2 opposite HOTS sharing a neutral, and used for 2 separate 110V circuits.

... But theyre not really separate since both sides connect to the neutral thru their respective loads [lights, motors, heaters, etc]. Thus the hot can cross to the neutral at any loaded outlet. If that neutral is open its potential rises to 110V. Now, if you measure from the opposite phase hot to that neutral you get 220V. That max voltage is essentially on an open circuit since the meter draws only a few micro amps. If you put a real load on the 2nd side, in place of the meter, the 220V would split proportionally according the resistance of the loads on each side. The sum of the Vs would be 220 but each load would see less than 220.
The reason is as stated. You dont get 220 -- just some fraction thereof. The lightly loaded side gets the higher fraction and it can fry electronics. The heavily loaded side sees lo voltage. - Motors and solenoids hate that.
,,,larry
 

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