Full synthetic

[man114]

If you're looking for real world experience I have a Troy Bilt Horse XP I bought 2 years ago at Lowes on clearance with a Kohler SV620 engine. I've seen this engine have issues wears the cylinder in almost an egg shape pattern. This tractor was purchased primarily so my son could make money mowing neighbors yards.

I ran the engine about 5 hours and immediately switched to Mobil 1 Synthetic (I got a bunch of this on clearance at Autozone a few years ago) with a ZDDP additive designed for older cars (I also have loads of this stuff) and put on a larger oil filter for more oil capacity. It's been run for many many hours, not always in the easiest duty and it runs very well. So I wouldn't say this has caused any issue. I change the oil somewhat earlier than required.

Is it unnecessary? Probably but I don't see using synthetic early causing problems.

 

[Copperhead]

Neither have I in any application.

 

[mkr7734]

I have run Mobil 1 in everything gas powered since my new 1978 LUV truck. And that is a lot of things. The JD tractor now has over 500hr on it and is 9 years old, I will be switching to full synthetic next change. Like Drew said, it is just easier to buy one oil and use it in everything.

 

[MHarryE]

Guys, Well after 36 years at Cat in Aurora Il In assembly, test, and then engine plant parts logistics. I can only speak for what I know. All Cat engines big and small are run on a test stand after assembly. These stands have a filtering system and the engine is tested and set for all sorts of parameters for the application it will be used in. Then an oil sample is taken recorded and the results are sent with the engine. Fluids are then drained for shipment new filters are installed and If it does not pass the oil sample it will be run flushed and filled, then run again. They seldom fail the a oil sample test, At that point they go to paint then to shipping to the assembly plant where the engines will be married to the machine it will be used in. Once installed in a machine they are again filled with fluids and again are put on a test stand where all system specs are set. The engine machining parts processes are so rigorous that there should be no chips or shavings. Parts are machined, blown out,washed, blown out again then inspected, Many times, most, today this is all done by machine and they hold to an extreme close tolerance. So the machine not only machines the part it also cleans it. Then the parts are packaged and sent to the engine assembly line. While there is always a chance something may get through it is very very rare. On machines with very complex hydraulic systems like Hydraulic excavators it is even more important to be clean so they run them in flush and fill station for upwards of 30 minutes to clean the machine's hydraulic systems and then new filters are installed. Then an oil sample is taken and if it does not pass it is run through the process till tho oil is shown clean. I would think today all brands hold to the same kind if rigorous processes and inspections. If they are not I would look for another brand to spend my money on. I am sure most hold to the same standards. I would not be worrying to much about chips in a new engine these days. Now back in 1973 when I started, well lets just say it was a lot looser back then. As they have automated more and removed human hands from the processes things got better. Jobs got worse but quality is better today than then. Today's machines come with ports so oil samples can be taken. If you have a question on some oil in the machine, get it tested. They can tell you almost anything you would want to know about the health of your machine by these samples. We have come a long way from the old days. :thumbsup: Now I have been retired since 1-30-2009 but would think things are only better. I hope this has been helpful information.

mkr7734 and I worked for the same company, retired on the same date, but worked at different plants, but our plant was similar. Everything assembled clean, run tested, fluids checked must meet a certain contamination level before leaving the factory, and recleaned (expensive so learn to do it right the first time) until fluids meet a very strict cleanliness level. If the dealer receives a machine that foes not meet them s spec, they get to clean it at Ma Cat's expense so factories pay strict attention - they get charged back and every employee at that plant feels it in their paycheck. But that is Caterpillar and my experience with Kubota and Deere is not up to that standard. I was shocked at the crud at the oil filters in my 4 Kubotas at first oil change. When I retired the newest product from Aurora's plant was at 4,000 hours to first hydraulic oil change, when the user uses oil sampling, and 2,000 hours if they didn't sample. I matched that on my project duct lines using the same basic hydraulics as Aurora but kept 2,000 and 1,000 on my lighter product due to lack of long change interval experience. Then I traded my older Kubota on a L5740 which specified a 400 hour change. I was amazed at the crud. My M135GX was much better - I sent have sent oil samples to our local Cat dealer for analysis and wear metals and contamination all fell within Cats guidelines when changed at 400 hours, but remember that is still 1/10th of what Cat recommends. Our Deere's will get their first sampling this year.

There is really no reason oil needs to be changed at the customer's expense to compensate for poor manufacturing quality but SCUT and CUT customers on this forum apparently are okay with it. Cat customers will not accept it, but we are talking about customers who have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in their equipment. Is that what it takes? Or is it that building a CUT to the equivalent quality standards will make it prohibitively expensive?

 

[Soundguy]

Cat customers will not accept it, but we are talking about customers who have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in their equipment. Is that what it takes? Or is it that building a CUT to the equivalent quality standards will make it prohibitively expensive?

If I buy a 500K machine, I expect it to be built better than a 15K machine.

And I don't want to pay 16K for a 15K machine just because it may need an early 100$ oil change.

 

[WilliamBos]

If I buy a 500K machine, I expect it to be built better than a 15K machine.

And I don't want to pay 16K for a 15K machine just because it may need an early 100$ oil change.

Not just the machine, the excellent service. A friend of mine told me the only time he never had to check and fix/tighten things after a repair was when it was done at the Cat dealer. He checked their work, never had an issue.

 

[Soundguy]

Not just the machine, the excellent service. A friend of mine told me the only time he never had to check and fix/tighten things after a repair was when it was done at the Cat dealer. He checked their work, never had an issue.

I've been with a general contractor since the late 80's. There isn't anything magical about cat or deere except the $$ they charge.

I've had machinery taken in for repair and sent back out with HUGE glaring problems

The yellow paint sure is expensive though.

 

[daugen]

keep taking zeros off please. What do we expect on a 150 dollar entry level gas engine?
And are inexpensive engines built in such a way we should be changing the oil differently, if only at the start? I'd sure expect an inexpensive Briggs 5hp motor to "break in" a lot faster than I would a new BMW or Porsche engine with those exotic cylinder and/or piston coatings.

As for my Kubota diesel engine, it is really clear Kubota is quite happy with high quality conventional oil.
Both the original and my current Kubota dealers did not/do not stock synthetic 15/40 for the tractors

 

[Soundguy]

Here's a couple things to ruminate on. I have an ok murray mower, its 19 or 20 now, I replaced it 2 ys ago with a mtd clone.

The muresy has a brigs ? 12.5hp. It was one of them cast iron sleeve advertised ones, rebuildable, etc.. Mine now has 2 bad rear tires, and the deck is pretty much shot. I've put bearings in the spindles before, rethreaded stripped spindle threads, its been thru a couple drive belts and 3-4 deck belts. Here in hot sandy Florida, you can mow 10 months a year.. Or more.. And that's weekly.

So you'd think my engine was shot right? Naa.. Starts and runs good..

The local small eng shop I get blades and belts from says he hardly ever sells engine kits.. Almost never. Carbs.. Yeah...

Compair that to air compressors. A 60g 5 hp, 2 piston Ch air compressor at work died. The piston s and crank have to be replaced together, they were form molded to fit together.. repair by replacement.. Go figure.

Now.. If my mtd clone will make it even 10 ys ill be impressed. Just outside of warranty I did my first blade change. Both spindles list threads due to being on too tight from the factors. So at 13 months old, I already had to grind and tap the threads the next nearest undersize I could go and get full thread root. Wasn't happy.. I have had them off this 2nd year and was very careful inspecting them. If the threads ever start to go, I can't undersize them again safely, and will have to go for spindles. I've seen a cheap will fit set that requires me to drill mounting holes, for 49$ each. Correct bolt on ones will run me 70$ or more each. They dont make em like they used to.. Bushings for bearings in some models too..

 

[daugen]

Soundguy I'm amazed your Murray/MTD lasted that long; can only be because you gave it good maintenance.
Your Murray was likely designed for the lowest price point. What you are saying is really that inexpensive mowers today are getting better.
Good to hear. You have a Powerbuilt motor in your Murray, allegedly a tough customer. Probably not OHC and built before emission controls.
Made to run and run...might be good to take the head off and clean the valves.
I guess their main bearings are pretty good. And also because Florida is flat and you aren't doing a lot of operating
on slopes and starving the engine for oil at times. I mention this having moved to coastal NC three years ago where everything is flat as a pool table here, except for the ever present ditches.

good luck with Chinese mower spindles and belt pulleys. I bet there are millions of them seized up in our country's dumps. I'm quite sure China makes high quality spindles too. It's all in the spec and the sway of the bean counters.

Now there's an interesting scenario. On slopes where the pickup is sucking air, or the splash system is splashing in the wrong places, would having synthetic oil in the engine provide better protection than conventional? Does stuff like Slick 50 really help in those situations?
Or does plain oil stock with some fancy additives stick around long enough that this is all moot and irrelevant?
There's a lot of koolaid being sold here and I admit drinking a bit of it...
I always thought synthetic was better at everything. Is it?

 

[Soundguy]

Soundguy I'm amazed your Murray/MTD lasted that long; can only be because you gave it good maintenance.
Your Murray was likely designed for the lowest price point. What you are saying is really that inexpensive mowers today are getting better.
Good to hear. You have a Powerbuilt motor in your Murray, allegedly a tough customer. Probably not OHC and built before emission controls.
Made to run and run...might be good to take the head off and clean the valves.
I guess their main bearings are pretty good. And also because Florida is flat and you aren't doing a lot of operating
on slopes and starving the engine for oil at times. I mention this having moved to coastal NC three years ago where everything is flat as a pool table here, except for the ever present ditches.

good luck with Chinese mower spindles and belt pulleys. I bet there are millions of them seized up in our country's dumps. I'm quite sure China makes high quality spindles too. It's all in the spec and the sway of the bean counters.

Now there's an interesting scenario. On slopes where the pickup is sucking air, or the splash system is splashing in the wrong places, would having synthetic oil in the engine provide better protection than conventional? Does stuff like Slick 50 really help in those situations?
Or does plain oil stock with some fancy additives stick around long enough that this is all moot and irrelevant?
There's a lot of koolaid being sold here and I admit drinking a bit of it...
I always thought synthetic was better at everything. Is it?

Yes, I do think periodic maintenance DID help that 17yr old murray to survive. And yes, it was actually the CHEAPEST rider mower I could find, anywhere, got it at a walmart right before winter that year, so got another 50$ off of it. I might have paid ? 499$ for that thing? And yup.. It did not hav ethe emissions muffler, etc. Mower still starts and runs... deck is shot.. and one gear int he trans feels 'funny' but it drove fine right till I parked it. rear tires are bad, fronts still up. I plan on doing one of 2 things... rip the engine out and keep it for a project, or rip the deck out and tube the rears if they aren't gone completely and use it as a yard tender. Yup, flat florida. one a very small swal I had to cross to do the roadside and that was traversed in an instant. that old girl was a splash lube job.

The new mtd cloe has an oil filter, and the emissions muffler. and darn them cheap soft non rebuildable spindles. no replaceable bearings... soft too. whatever air gun they seated the washer headed blade nuts on with deformed the threads. when I puleld them off they pulled most of the threads with them, staying in the nut. oddly, the nut is hard and the spindles soft. a file test drug across the face of the spindle bites easilly.. but rides on the nut.. they should hav eknown that was going to be an issue. I rethreaded them as best I could, used new nuts obviously, different size, etc.. have had them off one time since then, and the threads were ok then. does make me mad though...

On the new mower I am running store brand syn oil.. it's cheap for the quantity it takes, and as you mention.. it MIGHT offer better protecting on that second it rides a slope.

Is it better? Maybee at heat stability. I'm no petro engineer.

I do know one thing. the old murray would darken oil fast, even new.. it had no oil filter and only a single stage air filter.

this new mtd, oil comes out like it went in.. like amber.

it has a 2 stage air filter, an oil filter and I'm running syn oil. are one of thos ehelping more than the other? dunno.... i'm betting they all help some.

I'm just hoping to get at least half as much life out of this mtd clone as I did the murray. on the old murray, if it's deck hadn't have just finally died for the 3rd time, I'd have foamed the tires and kept running her. i did spindle bearings on that deck, a rethread once, and some welding to replace deck metal simply eroded away by sandy florida a COUPLE times.

Since my mtd clone is still newish. I was thinking about taking some proactive steps to making it last.

when i had her up on the hoiust to do blades the beginning of the year, i noticed factory paint is just now wearing thru on the underside of the deck.

i have half a mind to buy a can of that truck underframe rubber coating and spray the heck out of the deck. that ruberized paint may deflect sand better.

The blades just don't last unfortunately. in sandy sunny florida, if you buy the super high dollar blades, at the end of 2 years they look like weed eater twine. I have been going with a cheaper 10$ each blade, and just replacing them each year vs a 29$ set that is an inch wide by the time you replace it.

i did swap to non mulching blades. the straights last a hair longer.. blades seem softer these days., I keep a 5g bucket of JUST mower blades. I use them to make things. the old blades were thicker and and harder or stronger maybee the better word..metal it seems. some of these new blades.. you can bend by hand. what's with that? almost looks like it would be cheaper to just buy 1/8" x 2" flat stock 4' section and cut 2 blades out of it with a chop saw, bore the center hole at the hub, then grind a 3" 35-45 degree edge on and go.

or heck.. weld a bead of hard face on the iron, then grind a blade on it... seems liek the metal would be no LESS strong, abut yet it would be cheaper by about 25%, and I'd still have 9.75" of flat stock to play with.

Hmm.. that might be an idea. next time I pull the blades to sharpen, weld a hard face down the line and regrind....

 

[aczlan]

r heck.. weld a bead of hard face on the iron, then grind a blade on it... seems liek the metal would be no LESS strong, abut yet it would be cheaper by about 25%, and I'd still have 9.75" of flat stock to play with.
Hmm.. that might be an idea. next time I pull the blades to sharpen, weld a hard face down the line and regrind....

Might need to add hardfacing to the back "uplift" part of the blade as well, I have seen those get sandblasted away.

Aaron Z

 

[Soundguy]

Exactly. The mulching blades rest much more as well also due to their shape


I may just try tho on next change.

Maybee a test. Hardface and grind one blade, mark it, and not the other, see how they compare at next season.

 

[vsteel]

I don't run synthetic in lawn mowers. For a golf course, it makes sense. But, for most homeowners, I don't think it makes sense.

I bet you have never had a motorcycle that takes an odd amount of oil so you use the left over bits of synthetic in the mower.

 

[ray66v]

I bet you have never had a motorcycle that takes an odd amount of oil so you use the left over bits of synthetic in the mower.

Thankfully, I do not own a motorcycle.

Both of the mowers I currently have, don't use a drop of engine oil, between changes.

If one of them did, I would not have a problem doing that.

 

[vsteel]

Thankfully, I do not own a motorcycle.

Both of the mowers I currently have, don't use a drop of engine oil, between changes.

If one of them did, I would not have a problem doing that.

Mine never used oil, I change the oil with the left over bits since they also always took less than a quart. The mowers are at the bottom of the food chain so they get the left overs. Once I break the seal if I don't put it all in the machine, I don't use it for the motors I care about.

Though I do wonder about the synthetic oil helping. I have an old push mower that is 17 years old that I have used every year and for the first couple before I had a rider for the larger areas, it was mowing 2 acres. Just a normal B&S motor that still runs like the day I bought it. I wish I had an hour meter on it, I know it is up there.

 

[ray66v]

Mine never used oil, I change the oil with the left over bits since they also always took less than a quart. The mowers are at the bottom of the food chain so they get the left overs. Once I break the seal if I don't put it all in the machine, I don't use it for the motors I care about.

Though I do wonder about the synthetic oil helping. I have an old push mower that is 17 years old that I have used every year and for the first couple before I had a rider for the larger areas, it was mowing 2 acres. Just a normal B&S motor that still runs like the day I bought it. I wish I had an hour meter on it, I know it is up there.

What is it you wonder about the synthetic oil helping?

There is no longer any substantial difference in lubricity, between synthetic oil, and regular mineral oil, at normal temperatures.

There was, a long time ago, which causes a lot of misconception today.

Synthetic oil could help, if you mow in sub zero weather, or when it's like, over 120F.

Why is it, you banish the oil to the junk motors, just because you "broke the seal"?

I have owned a 1997 Villager, since new. It has 242,000 miles on it. It runs perfectly, and never uses any oil. It does not know what synthetic oil is. It's never had anything, but 5k mile oil changes, with regular Penzoil 10w-30. And, with the exception of the factory filter, it's never had anything but a Fram oil filter, which everyone rants about how bad they are! :confused3:

 

[Soundguy]

I tell ya, those old bs run! And run!

 

[vsteel]

What is it you wonder about the synthetic oil helping?

Synthetic oil could help, if you mow in sub zero weather, or when it's like, over 120F.

Why is it, you banish the oil to the junk motors, just because you "broke the seal"?

Even though I do put the lid back on I just feel better using fresh oil in the motors I really care about and the mower uses up any odds and ends I have. Almost all of my engines take whole quarts so not many have left overs. Just a "thing" I have. Might be irrational but makes me feel better.

I am thinking it is good for the mower because it is an air cooled motor so they are running a lot hotter than a liquid cooled motor. I don't mow at 120 but I am sometimes running the push mower at 90.

I run Shell Rotella T6 in everything I have except one engine with VVT which I need to use the correct viscosity. I used to run all sorts of different motor oils and I got tired of having so many so I simplified. I just chose the Shell because it was a cheaper synthetic and it had a lot higher levels of phosphorus and zinc for my flat tappet motors and is nice for starting in those sub-zero days. I know that the formulation has changed over the years with the new grades but it still gives me the best results. (My test setup is my motorcycle, the sooner the shifting gets notchy the sooner the oil has broken down. When I try an oil I keep track of the mileage to see how long I can get out of it.) I know it is pure anecdotal but so far it is working for me. My motorcycle does require at least a semi-synthetic or better and I do ride in sub freezing temperatures.

The highest mileage vehicle I have is my 1991 GMC Sonoma at 199K. I bought it new and for the first 100K all it has was 10-30 in the winter and straight 30 in the summer which came out of the steel drums that we bought for the tractors. Various manufactures supplied the drums and I did 3K oil changes.

I do agree a lot of things have changed, the oil is so much better than it used to be and the machining in the motors is a lot better than it used to be. When I was pouring SD grade oil into my 70 SS it would be jet black in 500 miles. One benefit though is the old motors made checking the dipsticks really easy with that really black oil, the new motors keep the oil nice and clean for so much longer it can be hard to see.

 

[Soundguy]

High octane fuel may help with that engine too. Double edged sword though