First decision: CUT vs construction backhoe

[edgarrian]

Personally I think you should rent an excavator and get these tasks done. However if you are not a competent operator then find a friend who is and have him do it

 

[Coach v]

Personally I think you should rent an excavator and get these tasks done. However if you are not a competent operator then find a friend who is and have him do it

The problem is, not all the tasks will be done at the same time. Every year we will move several yards of sand and firewood to be moved.
. Every year there will be a snow to be moved and driveways to me fixed. Some water lines I will put in right away, like to the pigs, others will be later projects. Renting is costly as the nearest rental place is 70 miles away. Last time I rented, it was $250 each way for transport. I don't think renting is in my cards.

 

[rScotty]

The problem is, not all the tasks will be done at the same time. Every year we will move several yards of sand and firewood to be moved.
. Every year there will be a snow to be moved and driveways to me fixed. Some water lines I will put in right away, like to the pigs, others will be later projects. Renting is costly as the nearest rental place is 70 miles away. Last time I rented, it was $250 each way for transport. I don't think renting is in my cards.

Shucks, that's not a problem; it's an opportunity to buy a tractor! ... or several.....
rScotty

 

[Coach v]

Shucks, that's not a problem, it's an opportunity to buy a tractor! ... or several.....
rScotty

That's what I am thinking. I am leaning towards a mid-size tractor loader backhoe, like the Kubota l39. I worry about it being shuttle shift and not hydrostatic.

I have driven hydrostatic tractors and they are easy. How do shuttle shift transmissions work? How are they on hills?

 

[Richard]

Owning an industrial, I'm biased.

I talked to the wife for a couple years about getting a tractor. (my goal was something like a Kubota L series with loader/backhoe). She finally said "my brother (hers) has one for sale, why don't you go buy that??!!"

Jumped on it and it was the industrial.

It's what I learned on so it's really what I'm accustomed to using. I've since used (much) smaller tractor based machines and they are simply less capable. I don't recall the number, but I can reach something like 24 (maybe 21?) feet out with the hoe.... can go down to a two foot flat bottom at 15 1/2 feet deep. Not that I'm going that deep but, if I'm going 3-4 feet deep, I can reach out further and stay in same place longer to do that verses a smaller hoe.

Wife one day said Hernando (her fish) died...would I bury him? I grabbed a paper cup and was going to fling him into the woods. She was mortified....I had to BURY him... fine. Jumped on backhoe, drove to top of hill, took one scoop of dirt with backhoe (two feet wide) flung him in and dumped the dirt.

Different time, she pointed at some day-lillies and asked me to transplant them from "here" to "there". Jumped on machine, dug the "there" hole first, came back, scooped them up.....drove them over and placed them in the "there" hole. She again, was aghast.... saying I should use a shovel.

I said, I did. Just happened to be a powerful shovel. Besides....why have it if we don't use it??

(now that house is built, its use has greatly subsided)

Now, I'm not wanting to get rid of it and go smaller.... We live at the very end of dead-end road. During storms, trees sometimes fall across road and it will be hours before the county is out to clear them. I can get my chainsaw out and spend some time & energy cutting a swath through the tree so I can then go to work....OR, I can just fire up the machine, push tree out of the way and be done in 10 minutes with little energy spent. I can then deal with tree later in day on my terms.

Side note, during those kind of storms, I become the road checker....I drive down entire length of my road to make sure we can get out to the main road. Then, there's a development between the main road and myself....I drive up their way to make sure they are not blocked in by a fallen tree/branch. If they are, I scoot it out of their way and move on.

I guess this is more of a meandering post....if you read it, I guess you'll never get those 2-minutes of your life back.

 

[fried1765]

We started out doing much the same thing as you are but 45 years ago..... We built a house in the mountains, & later bought a sweet compact 4wd tractor & loader. Nice, but a bit light for the work especially on slopes.
However, we wished we had bought it sooner.

Looking back on it, our tractor ownership has gone through 4 phases:

First was the compact 4wd tractor w/loader & blade. Wonderful thing & much better than doing things by hand, but powerwise not a whole lot different from what you can do by hand.... just way more convenient. Kind of expensive for us at the time.

Later we bought an older farm tractor and added a loader & wide front. Inexpensive, very powerful, very stable, very reliable....rather unwieldy though. Has PS (a must), a category II 3pt hitch + 3pt backhoe.

30 years later & retired, my wife bought us a new semicommercial TLB: a Kubota M59 with interchangeable cat. II 3pt/ frame-mounted backhoe. BH HAS A THUMB!!. We still use it everyday. Remarkably handy & crazy strong.
A flood wiped us out in 2013. As part of the rebuild we bought an older construction backhoe - a typical JD310G - to work alongside our M59. It is often used as a dumptruck, in the creek, or for really heavy rocks. No thumb :-(

So we have a lot of thoughts on comparisons if you have questions...
rScotty

I have had a Ford 3400 TLB for the last 33 years.
Don't use it often, but when I do, I am SO thankful that I have it.

Two weeks ago I bought the older/smaller cousin to your M59: A 2006 L48 with 250 hours.
I consider it to be my slightly early 79th birthday present.

Sadly, I will sell the yellow Ford.
The orange machine has same 48 HP, but has 4wd, and is a lot newer.

 

[4570Man]

That's what I am thinking. I am leaning towards a mid-size tractor loader backhoe, like the Kubota l39. I worry about it being shuttle shift and not hydrostatic.

I have driven hydrostatic tractors and they are easy. How do shuttle shift transmissions work? How are they on hills?

A Kubota L39 or one of its cousin models sounds like a way better idea but any of them that are decent cost way more than 10k.

 

[rScotty]

We gotta get some common terminology down, first - we should make sure we are on the same page with definitions.
ALL tractors have something that functions as a clutch. It is either a traditonal foot clutch, a torque converter that only engages above an idle, or it is HST which works sort of like a torque converter.
Or the tractor may have a combination of these things. The very best modern HST have a torque converter function as well as a foot clutch.

More definition: A shuttle shift today means it has quick clutchless shifting between Forward and Reverse. That's all it means. There is also either a foot clutch or torque converter used for shifting between 1.2.3&4 gear speeds.
So with shuttleshift there is a fingertip lever - usually on the steering column - and on that lever are F&R positons...sometimes with Neutral in between the F&R. Moving that lever sends an electric signal to a hydraulic solenoid which then uses a tiny bit of hydraulic pressure in the transmission to shift a syncronized spur gear back and forth between Forwand and Reverse on the output shaft of the transmission.
It really is no different than if you could reach down and do the same thing with a manual lever on floor that was directly connected to that spur gear. In fact, early shuttle shifts were exactly that, which led to a confusing number of floor levers and they didn't always use syncronized gears.

Summing up the the shuttle shift, the simplest shuttle shift transmission has a normal foot clutch for starting off and selecting the major gears or ranges. Only the option for shuttling back and forth between F&R shuttle is "clutchless".... although you can then clutch with your foot once it engages.

Shuttle shifts generally engage pretty fast, even abruptly. I remember whipping along in road gear on our tractor and waved to some friends as I passed their house on our new tractor when I accidently hit the shuttle shift lever. The next thing I knew, the steering wheel hit me in the gut bending me over the dashboard and the tires were howling as the tractor went from full out forward to full reverse in a fraction of a second. Neighbors still laugh about it...

Shuttle shift can be a real rodeo on an icy/snowy hillside or driveway just because it is abrupt at the very moment when what you want is slow careful power & gear changes. If it also has a foot cluch you can make it work by simply staying in a gear, coming to a stop, and using the foot clutch. It's just a skill to develop.

Now a Powershift is basically a shuttleshift that also puts all the gears in each range up on that fingertip lever and you shift through them similarly to how a shuttle shift works.
The difference is that instead of F&R on the fingertip lever you will have something like: 1,2,3,4 & Reverse. Reverse is a separate speed, usually equivalent to 2nd but moves you backwards of course. It's common for Powershift to also have 1 to 4 overall "Ranges" that are selected by a lever on the floor.
Of course a Powershift still has to have some sort of a clutch. So it will have either a traditional foot clutch or a clutchless torque converter which allows you to stop in gear as the motor slows to an idle. Some machines had both. Those are the best for hillside work.

For hillside work with a powershift you really need one with a foot clutch to reduce the rodeo effect that you can have with a heavy machine which has nothing but a torque converter.
Our old 2006 vintage JD310SG commercial backhoe has powershift and a torque converter but no foot clutch. It has 1,2,3 & Rev. on a powershift lever on the steering column and a torque converter that engages with a lurch. That backhoe can be downright scary on slick hillsides. JD also offered the same machine with a standard transmission, foot clutch, and a shuttle shift. That is a much better combo on slick hillsides than what we have on ours. Ours still scares me sometimes.

Yes, the HST transmissions are really convenient and are way better now than they used to be. Most now have automatic "return to idle" and "load sensing" - which means that the engine automatically revs to meet the load. But the old ones didn't always have those features. Even so they were better than that pure torque converter and powershift combo on hills, but not as good as an old style foot clutch and manual transmission for adding power controllably.

The very best of the Powershift of HST have a traditional foot clutch as well. Our Kubota M59 comes that way. It is a treat on slick hillsides. Very controllable.

BTW, even with the best of the options on a slick hillside, it all goes into rodeo mode again when you try to put on the brakes. Tractors only have brakes on the back wheels and they not only lock up easily they can swing you from side to side - that's part of why 4wd is an absolute necessity for working on slick hillsides.
rScotty

 

[4570Man]

My full-size backhoe has a stick on the steering column with 1-4 gears and 1-4 gears in reverse. There’s no such rodeo action. It’s much smoother than gear drive with a clutch. Probably 99 percent as smooth and precise as a HST. I can hit my machine in 1st gear and it won’t move until I let off the brake. You can easily ease up on the brake for precise movements. Pretty much identical to an automatic transmission vehicle except I have all gears in reverse. Not that that’s a useful feature. I’d rate the power shift in my backhoe or whatever term you want to call it as being equal to a HST. There’s no foot clutch in the backhoe. You’ve got neutral and a button on the loader stick that engages neutral.

 

[Coach v]

It sounds like I want a hydrostatic transmission. Slick hills are what I have. With that said, which tlb in the 35 to 60hp range have hst? Not the l39. The l45 and m59?

 

[rScotty]

It sounds like I want a hydrostatic transmission. Slick hills are what I have. With that said, which tlb in the 35 to 60hp range have hst? Not the l39. The l45 and m59?

Fortunately, that doesn't eliminate the L39. And it would be my own choice for what you want. I believe it has a traditional single plate dry clutch IN ADDITION to their Powershift ....someties Kubota calls that combination a Glideshift.
The only problem with the L39...and the other Kubota true TLBs right up to the new M62 is the initial price.

Adding a foot clutch is what makes an otherwise autoshifting tractor more controllable on hills.
But it is the 4wd that makes it all possible on slick hills. You will get into far more problems with the brakes on a hill than you will with the power.
rScotty

 

[4570Man]

Why would you want a foot clutch? My backhoe doesn’t have one and it would be of no use if it did.

 

[rScotty]

My full-size backhoe has a stick on the steering column with 1-4 gears and 1-4 gears in reverse. There’s no such rodeo action. It’s much smoother than gear drive with a clutch. Probably 99 percent as smooth and precise as a HST. I can hit my machine in 1st gear and it won’t move until I let off the brake. You can easily ease up on the brake for precise movements. Pretty much identical to an automatic transmission vehicle except I have all gears in reverse. Not that that’s a useful feature. I’d rate the power shift in my backhoe or whatever term you want to call it as being equal to a HST. There’s no foot clutch in the backhoe. You’ve got neutral and a button on the loader stick that engages neutral.

That sounds like a very nice full size backhoe. And it sounds like it has a nice transmission. Which model is it? Either I don't see it or don't recognize it on your tractor list.

I'm glad yours that smooth. and glad to hear it. But as good as your torque converter sounds like it works, not all older powshift+torque converters are so smooth. And I'd disagree that a good old single plate foot clutch isn't just on smooth as the best torque converter.

BTW, and completely different subject, have you ever gotten into a rodeo on an icy hillside? Be honest now..... And did it start with either backing down or hitting the brakes? Or both?
Myself, I've been running tractors for 50+ years and haven't had such an event for nigh onto a year now.
rScotty

 

[4570Man]

Mine is a 310j. You can’t move a gear tractor slower than the minimum travel speed without burning the clutch. I can with the PS. I’ve slid down a wet grassy hill once when I still had bald tires on it. It hasn’t happened since I put new ones on it. It was probably in 2wd at the time but I don’t remember. And my full size backhoe performs terrible in mud with 4x4 not making much difference. Both my trucks are a straight shift so I can drive one but I still don’t know why you’d want a clutch with a toque converter or how you’d use it.

 

[rScotty]

Why would you want a foot clutch? My backhoe doesn’t have one and it would be of no use if it did.

Because anytime you are on a hillside with snow over ice you want to do things real carefully. A torque converter always puts a small amount of torque onto the driveshaft. But usually the torque donverter doesn't drive the tractor forward when the machine is at idle because the whole torque converter system depends on the fact that at idle there is enough friction between the rear wheels and the ground so that not enough power is transferred to the drive train to rotate the tires against the mass of the tractor.

On ice that friction between the tires and ground is way less or isn't there at all. So even the small amount of torque on the drive train will start to spin the rear tires even at low idle. You can't avoid doing it....it's a function of having a torque converter. But spinning tires even very slowly just isn't what you want on ice on a hill with a heavy machine.

So that is why a foot clutch is such an advantage. A good single plate dry foot clutch enables you to turn off ALL the torque on the drivetrain when at an idle. And then you can feed just enough in to be useful. A torque converter could be set low enough to do that, but it would need to be somehow adjustable from the cockpit... like a foot clutch is.

A good modern HST will also turn off all the torque to the drivetrain when the machine is at idle. So it's just about as good as having a foot clutch backup. Some HST have both. Ours does.

I'd agree that on most surfaces a torque converter by itself is just fine and even nice to have. It's just ice and snow hillsides that are the exception.
rScotty

 

[4570Man]

Isn’t that what the brakes are for? You can hold the machine locked with the brakes and either ease up on the brakes or increase the throttle until it moves as easy as you want. I agree probably not as smooth as a HST but I’ve never seen a full size backhoe have that option.

 

[rScotty]

It sounds like I want a hydrostatic transmission. Slick hills are what I have. With that said, which tlb in the 35 to 60hp range have hst? Not the l39. The l45 and m59?

THe L39 has powershift plus a foot clutch, so it would work for you. I believe the L45 and M59 and M62 are all HST+. That's Kubota's premium HST transmission and is especially good on hills.
Tractordata.com has good info on model features.
rScotty

 

[Richard]

I'd stay away from a GST unit.

I rented one, long ago. Have hills here. The hill behind my house is (supposedly) the highest hill in the county. I was on it doing some stuff... went to hit forward or reverse for the first time.

I had NO idea that when it changed gears, it would be similar to simply pushing in the clutch and freewheeling. Darn thing started to freewheel backwards while it ever so casually changed gears on me.... I was putting as much pressure on the brakes as I could, using the steering wheel to hold me into the seat while I used even MORE pressure.....

That (L35) was actually the type of machine I was wanting to buy in my beginning.....but after that event I totally struck GST off my list as a "no way" item.

My JCB is simply a click/shift (like your turn signal on your car). Between it, the brakes & foot throttle, I've never felt out of control of it (other than the one time I slid sideways down my (mild) side yard!!! Been raining and it was muddy out. Last time I did that.

 

[Richard]

I understand some industrials have inching clutches (mine does but, it hasn't worked from my first day of ownership)

Do any tractors have inching clutches?

 

[rScotty]

I'd stay away from a GST unit.

I rented one, long ago. Have hills here. The hill behind my house is (supposedly) the highest hill in the county. I was on it doing some stuff... went to hit forward or reverse for the first time.

I had NO idea that when it changed gears, it would be similar to simply pushing in the clutch and freewheeling. Darn thing started to freewheel backwards while it ever so casually changed gears on me.... I was putting as much pressure on the brakes as I could, using the steering wheel to hold me into the seat while I used even MORE pressure.....

That (L35) was actually the type of machine I was wanting to buy in my beginning.....but after that event I totally struck GST off my list as a "no way" item.

My JCB is simply a click/shift (like your turn signal on your car). Between it, the brakes & foot throttle, I've never felt out of control of it (other than the one time I slid sideways down my (mild) side yard!!! Been raining and it was muddy out. Last time I did that.

Yep, that's the problem with regular Powershifts of all kinds. When they get old, the torque converter eventually becomes either lazy or abrupt. A foot clutch at least gives a person the option to override it, but few use them that way. The good news is that powershifts rarely break completely. When new and working as they should they are fine for dirt work. Not so good on ice because of the low friction tire rotation thing I mentione.
Yes, you can use the brakes to moderate the engagement, but it's just one more thing to do. Crossing a sideslope or hillside using the brakes has a problem all it's own.

Folks, I'm not slamming Powershift. It just has problems that we all know about when on icy hillsides. I have one myself. And Powershift won't ever be a a problem for lots of folks in about half the USA. But go back to post #1, the OP for this thread wants to use his tractor in the mountains in a climate known for deep snow and specifically mentions a long sloping driveway and snow removal as being what he needs to do.
rScotty