Haymaking with Walk behind?

[Timberwerkz]

Thinking about cutting hay with a walk behind and wanted to talk to someone who is or has done this. Interested in cost per bale. And real world pros/cons and things that I wouldn稚 have thought of.

Thanks for the help,
Chris

 

[JamesHW]

Not enough info (not that I could answer the question as to price per bale in any event), but using walk-behind attachments to make bales of hay with a walk behind involves three devices, sickle bar mower, Molon hay rake /tedder and the Caeb round hay baler. Those three attachments would be well over 10k new (mostly the baler). Of course you could sub a sickle, hay fork and hand baler of some sort to bring cost way down along with production. The cost of planting the field of hay needs to also be factored in in addition to inputs to be able to sus out a price per bale.

 

[stuckmotor]

I've seen some impressive youtube presentations on walk behind hay equipment. I believe these were filmed in places with cool climates like Switzerland. I see you're in Texas where it's hot. If you're young and thin you might be able to hold up to the heat and the walking. I wish you the best of luck and if you try it, let us know how it works out.

 

[jbradley]

I cut approximately 2 acres (half of my hayfield) with my 948 with 45" sickle mower. It took me almost 6 hours. I raked it with my 4-wheel tractor. No rain was forcast, but it rained. I re-raked it to dry it out, and it rained again. It subsequently got moldy, so I burned my windrows. I'm glad I hadn't mowed the whole field. I've subsequently purchased a 7' sickle for my tractor. Unless you have a hillside that you can't mow with a 4-wheel tractor, get used. 4-wheel equipment and do it that way. It's a lot less work and faster, too.

 

[atsah]

The only walk behind haying equipment we used years ago were a team of Percherons..

 

[freedomlives]

I used to do the hay making with various walk behinds. Up to five acres. Except the baling, which I pay someone to come and do.

Time is the big thing to look at. And its a question what equipment you already have. For some years I enjoyed listening to podcasts while mowing with the sickle bar mower and walking around the field. But as the area I was mowing got bigger, I just started to feel like it wasn't a good use of my time. Plus, when it came to moving large round bales, I was able to roll them up a ramp onto the trailer, but then comes stacking, which isn't possible. Last year I gave in and bought a 4 wheel tractor with a FEL. I still didn't have a mower for it last year, so cut the field with the walkbehind, but then borrowed a hay rake from a neighbor for turning. This year I got a drum mower. All done much faster, and fact is, the used attachments for four wheel tractors are usually more common than for two wheel, so likely you're going to pay about the same, if not less for the four wheel tractor attachments.

Now if you're getting the walk behind because you are also gardening, want the rotary plow, rotovator, power harrow, those sort of things, and you don't have much hay to cut, then it might work for you. But if you are just planning to cut hay, a four wheel tractor is going to be better, given that from what I can tell, East Bernard Texas is quite flat.

 

[BrokenTrack]

Not enough info (not that I could answer the question as to price per bale in any event), but using walk-behind attachments to make bales of hay with a walk behind involves three devices, sickle bar mower, Molon hay rake /tedder and the Caeb round hay baler. Those three attachments would be well over 10k new (mostly the baler). Of course you could sub a sickle, hay fork and hand baler of some sort to bring cost way down along with production. The cost of planting the field of hay needs to also be factored in in addition to inputs to be able to sus out a price per bale.

This is all true, but have you priced haying equipment for a 4 wheel tractor?

When I did my classes on sheep farming, I showed where a 2 wheel tractor was $9,0000 for new haying equipment, and using a dealers haymaker bundle deal, it was $27,000 for new haying equipment for the 4 wheel tractor. Sure you can buy used haying equipment, but that is not comparing apples to apples.

At a fair a dealership had a USED baler and were proud of its cheap $14,000 price tag! That is a steal, the same thing new was $44,000.

I break everything down by lamb costs, so assuming a $100 profit per lamb, I would have to raise 90 lambs to pay for the 2 wheel tractor haying equipment, and 270 lambs for the 4 wheel tractor before even beginning to make a profit. That is a lot of extra lambs for getting the exact same thing: hay.

To make it easier though, I would buy a sulky and save myself a lot of walking. That is always the limiting factor with my BSC; it actually accomplishes a lot of work, I just get tired from all the walking. But a sulky is cheaper than buying 4 wheel haying equipment.

 

[leonz]

It would be less costly to hire a neighbor with a windrower to cut your hay and windrow it in one pass.
The other thing is dealing with vermin and using a hay preservative where you would use a bale wrapper that would
cover the hay with a plastic sheet bale wrap and also spray a preservative in it as you bale it.

The netting type bale wrap will not hold a preservative or prevent vermin from burrowing the hay after its baled.

The other thing to remember is that the hay bales need to be stored with the sides up to hold the shape of the hay
bale in place as it will not compress the ends/sides of the hay bale when stored vertically.

You might want to consider a struck kit tracked tractor to do this too as it has a front PTO and it is less costly than
a BCS unit and has many possible uses.

A Wolagri R500 combi minibaler has a round baler with w rear mounted balewrapper that will let you bale and wrap at the same time using
a small subcompact tractor.

 

[herm0016]

to be sucsusful you have to figure out what your labor is worth. I figure mine at about 35 an hr. if the price to have someone else do something is less than my est hr rate and materials, then I hire it done, as my time is better spent elsewhere.

my contractor charges 50 per hr and his helper is 35. for certain projects they can do more work per $35 spent than i can, so i hire them.

figure out what you are worth and run the numbers again. i bet you can get a used tractor and equipment and have more time to raise sheep to pay for it.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

This is all true, but have you priced haying equipment for a 4 wheel tractor?

When I did my classes on sheep farming, I showed where a 2 wheel tractor was $9,0000 for new haying equipment, and using a dealers haymaker bundle deal, it was $27,000 for new haying equipment for the 4 wheel tractor. Sure you can buy used haying equipment, but that is not comparing apples to apples.

At a fair a dealership had a USED baler and were proud of its cheap $14,000 price tag! That is a steal, the same thing new was $44,000.

I break everything down by lamb costs, so assuming a $100 profit per lamb, I would have to raise 90 lambs to pay for the 2 wheel tractor haying equipment, and 270 lambs for the 4 wheel tractor before even beginning to make a profit. That is a lot of extra lambs for getting the exact same thing: hay.

To make it easier though, I would buy a sulky and save myself a lot of walking. That is always the limiting factor with my BSC; it actually accomplishes a lot of work, I just get tired from all the walking. But a sulky is cheaper than buying 4 wheel haying equipment.

The difference is there is a robust market for used hay equipment for 4-wheel tractors. I bought a 50-year-old Deere baler for $900, when I'm done with it I will sell it for $900 and some other fool can fiddle with it for a while. There are millions of those old balers out there, they're easy to buy and easy to sell. Two-wheel stuff is hard to find and hard to sell.

There are only two business models that make sense for haying: the first is to invest in new equipment, and run it continuously for the entire haying season. New equipment is so expensive that you have to make lots and lots of hay to justify the capital outlay, hay is a low-value commodity. The other model is to use old, cheap equipment to make hay on your own property for your own needs. You don't have to pay for transportation and you have so little invested in the equipment that your only inputs are fuel, twine and your own labor. If the equipment breaks down and you lose some hay it's no big deal, because you have so little in it in the first place.

You're not going to get rich with either model. Hay is a low-value commodity. Around here a good cutting might yield 5,000 pounds per acre, and a generous price would be ten cents a pound. So for $500/acre you have to mow, tedder, rake, bale, gather, haul and store that hay. Plus the costs of whatever amendments you choose to put on the field. The new equipment is much more productive than the older stuff, so you need less labor, but more capital-intensive so it evens out.

With a 2-wheeler you get the worst of both worlds: low productivity and high equipment cost. From an economic standpoint it's never going to pencil out. However, life isn't just about economics. If you enjoy spending time in your field, feeling productive and independent, go for it. I've never believed you should tell other people what they should want.

 

[JamesHW]

I agree the 2 wheeler is sub-optimal for haying, no question, especially for the cost of the baler. But I do find the Molon Side-delivery Hayrake / Tedders kind of cool and not that expensive. I’ve seen where someone will cut the hay with a scythe and then run the hay rake around moving all the hay into big piles, or moving piles around to facilitate drying forgoing the baling part of the equation.

 

[BrokenTrack]

The difference is there is a robust market for used hay equipment for 4-wheel tractors. I bought a 50-year-old Deere baler for $900, when I'm done with it I will sell it for $900 and some other fool can fiddle with it for a while. There are millions of those old balers out there, they're easy to buy and easy to sell. Two-wheel stuff is hard to find and hard to sell.

There are only two business models that make sense for haying: the first is to invest in new equipment, and run it continuously for the entire haying season. New equipment is so expensive that you have to make lots and lots of hay to justify the capital outlay, hay is a low-value commodity. The other model is to use old, cheap equipment to make hay on your own property for your own needs. You don't have to pay for transportation and you have so little invested in the equipment that your only inputs are fuel, twine and your own labor. If the equipment breaks down and you lose some hay it's no big deal, because you have so little in it in the first place.

You're not going to get rich with either model. Hay is a low-value commodity. Around here a good cutting might yield 5,000 pounds per acre, and a generous price would be ten cents a pound. So for $500/acre you have to mow, tedder, rake, bale, gather, haul and store that hay. Plus the costs of whatever amendments you choose to put on the field. The new equipment is much more productive than the older stuff, so you need less labor, but more capital-intensive so it evens out.

With a 2-wheeler you get the worst of both worlds: low productivity and high equipment cost. From an economic standpoint it's never going to pencil out. However, life isn't just about economics. If you enjoy spending time in your field, feeling productive and independent, go for it. I've never believed you should tell other people what they should want.

You are right of course, but I found what you said to be true of any farming operation, not just hay.

One way I found a farmer can get ahead is to build your own equipment, and think outside the box.

For me, I hay on the shares, which is, a guy with haying equipment comes in and hays my fields, and I get half of the hay. I would rather do it myself, BUT I cannot beat the price. I get hay for free basically. And that would work for anyone, as long as they have twice as many acres as they need.

But if I had to put up my own feed, I would never go with hay. I have sheep, and they thrive on silage. The average person also has the equipment already to process corn, and if they grow a garden, to plant corn as well. At 24 tons to the acre, they could really cut down on their feed costs. In the past I have fed my sheep with corn, cutting the corn down with a chainsaw, and then chipping it in a Troybilt Tomahawk Woodchipper. The result was corn silage that was identical to the silage that came out of our 1/4 million dollar silage chopper. But I used a woodchipper because I had it, a person could also cut a hole in top of a push lawnmower and run their corn stalks through that to produce silage.

If that is too labor intensive, a person could mow their field with any type of mower, then after it has wilted down to get the moisture content down to 60 percent, take a flail chopper and blow that into a wagon, and then form a nice pile and cover like any other silage pile. That would be a lot easier then using a hay baler because you would not have to have 4 days of good weather, and plastic sheeting is a lot cheaper then putting hay in a dedicated barn. That is what I would do if I did not have free hay.

 

[prof fate]

if you buy new...

I got a ferguson hay rake for $450. HAd a choice of another for $400.
Bought a NH 268 baler, $600. Know a guy selling an IH for $300 (needs work) and an older NH for about 700 in like new condition.

So for about a grand I went haying.

I need a hay wagon - my utility trailer isn't nearly big enough/useful enough. $450-600 for some not so local to me. Lots for $1500 or so.

I want a tedder..will look next spring as I won't need it till june. If I can get one that teds and rakes I can sell my rake for what I have in it.

As for TIME....

I mowed 11 acres ish about 6 hours (with a flail, door open, it just cuts and laws down the hay no problem).
Raking it the first time was about 2 hours.

To roll the rows for drying was an hour.

This was third cutting around here...a first cutting would be 2-3X the hay, so the rolling (aka tedding) would be a lot mroe time consuming.

Baling about 90 minutes...picking up the bales was a lot more - it's the hard work. Hire some local teens for the day. the rest is just riding around.

All with a 35hp kioti. I could probably pull a bale wagon and the baler...depends on size/load on the wagon though.

This is all true, but have you priced haying equipment for a 4 wheel tractor?

When I did my classes on sheep farming, I showed where a 2 wheel tractor was $9,0000 for new haying equipment, and using a dealers haymaker bundle deal, it was $27,000 for new haying equipment for the 4 wheel tractor. Sure you can buy used haying equipment, but that is not comparing apples to apples.

At a fair a dealership had a USED baler and were proud of its cheap $14,000 price tag! That is a steal, the same thing new was $44,000.

I break everything down by lamb costs, so assuming a $100 profit per lamb, I would have to raise 90 lambs to pay for the 2 wheel tractor haying equipment, and 270 lambs for the 4 wheel tractor before even beginning to make a profit. That is a lot of extra lambs for getting the exact same thing: hay.

To make it easier though, I would buy a sulky and save myself a lot of walking. That is always the limiting factor with my BSC; it actually accomplishes a lot of work, I just get tired from all the walking. But a sulky is cheaper than buying 4 wheel haying equipment.

 

[prof fate]

Getting half the hay is a deal.

Locally land rents for $50-75 an acre...120 bales an acre is ballpark and often can do better..but some years it may be worse. Until recently hay is $4/sq bale here...some can push 6 or 7 with the wet years we've had.

Our biggest issue is going to be barn space...I can get other land to hay because nobody here is doing the share/rent haying anymore.

You are right of course, but I found what you said to be true of any farming operation, not just hay.

One way I found a farmer can get ahead is to build your own equipment, and think outside the box.

For me, I hay on the shares, which is, a guy with haying equipment comes in and hays my fields, and I get half of the hay. I would rather do it myself, BUT I cannot beat the price. I get hay for free basically. And that would work for anyone, as long as they have twice as many acres as they need.

But if I had to put up my own feed, I would never go with hay. I have sheep, and they thrive on silage. The average person also has the equipment already to process corn, and if they grow a garden, to plant corn as well. At 24 tons to the acre, they could really cut down on their feed costs. In the past I have fed my sheep with corn, cutting the corn down with a chainsaw, and then chipping it in a Troybilt Tomahawk Woodchipper. The result was corn silage that was identical to the silage that came out of our 1/4 million dollar silage chopper. But I used a woodchipper because I had it, a person could also cut a hole in top of a push lawnmower and run their corn stalks through that to produce silage.

If that is too labor intensive, a person could mow their field with any type of mower, then after it has wilted down to get the moisture content down to 60 percent, take a flail chopper and blow that into a wagon, and then form a nice pile and cover like any other silage pile. That would be a lot easier then using a hay baler because you would not have to have 4 days of good weather, and plastic sheeting is a lot cheaper then putting hay in a dedicated barn. That is what I would do if I did not have free hay.

 

[aczlan]

Around here if you watch, you can get a used 30-50HP gas tractor for $3000-5000 (less if you are foolish enough to not want a loader), a used mower conditioner for $600-2000, a side delivery rake for $600-1200 and a baler for $600-2000.
A Tedder (required around here, possibly not necessary in warmer dryer places) is another $1200-2000.
Total $6200-12,000.

Aaron Z

 

[prof fate]

Depends of course, but 120 bales/acre, 10 acres, 1200 a year. $4/bale - $4800.
Time... I think I spent 20 hours, plus stacking the bales, not too much fuel as most was used mowing. Only 90 minutes baling, the raking is just driving around really.
So 3 haying, 60 hours, say pay $400 for helpers. If your time is $20/hour, that's $1000 plus some fuel ($25?) to get back $5k in hay. More than a good deal.

You'll NEED a hay wagon, so add that in. The baler cannot sit out, so a good tarp or more is necessary. Plus storage for all that hay.

If you have a need for a tractor anyway, then you can eliminate that in your match, so $3200-7000 range. Will pay for itself on 10 acres in 2 years. 20 acres in 1 year.

You have to balance this against how you get hay now - we were getting squares delivered and stacked for 3.75/bale. Hard to compete with that.
Some folks spend a lot more, some have to fetch and stack it, get it at auction, etc.

When we get sawdust for the stalls it's a 4 hour proposition.
We went and got some hay year before last, 2-3 hours plus we had to stack. Driving is only a part of the time spent - loading, tying the load, unloading, stacking. And fuel for the truck. We did it for some roundbales to avoid the delivery charge, not a lot to stack with rounds and a tractor LOL.

Around here if you watch, you can get a used 30-50HP gas tractor for $3000-5000 (less if you are foolish enough to not want a loader), a used mower conditioner for $600-2000, a side delivery rake for $600-1200 and a baler for $600-2000.
A Tedder (required around here, possibly not necessary in warmer dryer places) is another $1200-2000.
Total $6200-12,000.

Aaron Z

 

[BrokenTrack]

You could not give me a used baler.

I spent some of the summer pulling hay from a used square baler my friend bought, and it had such a dull knife that it would snap shear pins if you overloaded it, and the bales came out like linked sausages.

Silage is my friend.

Cut it in the morning, and that evening it is in the pile being covered. With silage you can dash between the rain drops and not have to look for a 4 day window of good weather.

 

[prof fate]

Maintenance!
You buy new and the next week it's used...so you still have to maintain it!

Remember - EVERYTHING that people are selling used they're selling for a REASON - if it was perfect it's not likely they'd be selling it! This is particularly true for cars in my experience - THEY know the trans is going, or a wheel bearing is going, or the rad may be bad, etc. Impleements that' don't 'move' (back blade, box blade, etc) are pretty safe bets. Things that move..teh more parts the more you gotta check it out.

And if it's been sitting...WHY? and most anything that sits needs attention.

You could not give me a used baler.

I spent some of the summer pulling hay from a used square baler my friend bought, and it had such a dull knife that it would snap shear pins if you overloaded it, and the bales came out like linked sausages.

Silage is my friend.

Cut it in the morning, and that evening it is in the pile being covered. With silage you can dash between the rain drops and not have to look for a 4 day window of good weather.

 

[BrokenTrack]

Maintenance!
You buy new and the next week it's used...so you still have to maintain it!

Remember - EVERYTHING that people are selling used they're selling for a REASON - if it was perfect it's not likely they'd be selling it! This is particularly true for cars in my experience - THEY know the trans is going, or a wheel bearing is going, or the rad may be bad, etc. Impleements that' don't 'move' (back blade, box blade, etc) are pretty safe bets. Things that move..teh more parts the more you gotta check it out.

And if it's been sitting...WHY? and most anything that sits needs attention.

True, but you missed my entire point.

It is 2019, there are better ways to feed animals now other than hay. Methods that are faster and healthier. My sheep nutritionist for instance recommended feeding my sheep 40% corn silage for energy, and 60% grass silage for protein content. With that mixture the sheep thrived.

I even had a pony that year and was sure it would lag from the mixture it was getting, but the stupid thing actually thrived on corn silage.

Again I do not do that any more because I get "free" hay, but that is the direction I would go if I produced my own feed.

 

[BrokenTrack]

When it comes to equipment, one of the things I look at, is how versatile it is. If it is a one-use machine, I probably will not buy it.

When it comes to haying, I see one purpose equipment.

I do not see that with silage equipment, in particular flail choppers. It would take a mower to cut the grass first and get some wilt-down to below 60% moisture content, as a person just cannot direct ensile silage from a flail chopper. But I can make a homemade drum mower easy enough.

I do not think I could home-build a flail chopper, but a brand new flail chopper is only $18,000. In comparing apples to apples, a new baler is $44,000.

But if a person wants to talk used, a person could buy a used mower and used flail chopper for about $4000. Here is the kicker though, a person can use the flail chopper to chop corn. It would not require the corn to be mowed first, because we let the frost hit it anyway, and get dry-down in the field. This makes the cheaper alternative more versatile. This is how I try and make my farm decisions, getting the most out of a purchase if I have to make one.