Need to buy a tractor - concerned about emissions stuff (sacrifice hp?)

[Gee Ray]

Any diesel including the McCormick 28 needs to be operated at high rpm. Running a diesel at low rpm and stalling it is not doing the tractor any favors. Put the engine speed up and let it run. If you are stalling it you need to slow the ground speed. After googling the mahaya grass I think you are talking about bahia grass. I have found that it is not a difficult grass to mow. It does however grow quickly.

I would try to mow the grass at a higher engine speed then the 540 mark on the tack. There is no information as to which transmission is in the tractor. If it is a gear drive you need to drop down a gear. If it is the HST do not push the peddle to the floor in an attempt to get it to mow better. Several people will equate the HST peddle to a gas peddle in a car and try to give the tractor more power by stepping on the peddle. Instead lift your foot an allow the engine to regain it's speed. Also run the engine speed at a mid range back and forth to the barn. A diesel is designed and built to run at a high rpm. In addition there is little information about the type of mower being used. Is it a finish or a ruff cut mower? How high are you cutting the grass?

How big is the tiller? I have put a 5 foot tiller behind a L2501 Kubota, 25 hp, and was very surprised at what a fine job it did but it was in low range and at full rpm. You could not hear the tiller pull the motor down at all. Yes, the soil is sandy but the tiller was set to the full depth and it was a pleasure to work the soil with the tiller.

What about the budget? People have given advice as to buy 40 -60 hp tractors. That can be a lot of money. Those of you that have the new tractors and are not having problems, congratulations. Ask your dealer what it is going to cost you to replace the DPF when it goes bad. It may take a long time but it will need replaced. Check out the cost.

I agree with you about finding a more common tractor. I traded a 1528 MF because you can not get parts for it.
If the OP has an chance to rent or demo a tractor on their place before they buy again it would help to determine which tractor to buy.

 

[ptsg]

I am sure there is a definite reduction in power with the different emissions systems. I don't think it is very much on smaller HP units. As HP increases the amount of loss would be more.

Anyway I just ordered a new 48 Hp tractor that claims 40 PTO Hp. The funny thing is both geared and HST are advertised as 40 PTO Hp. I know one of them is not correct. I hope to put mine on a PTO Dyno when I get it to find out what it is producing. Then I will delete the emissions stuff and will have it tested again. That should clear things up. I am sure there will be an increase to some degree but don't expect more than a few HP.

I'm with you K5lwq.

There will be a loss of HP for sure, but that's maybe 1 or 2 HP, then this number will increase as the DPF/DOC gets plugged.

Since you went with a gear tractor, my bet is that you have about 43 to 45 PTO hp but I'm definitely interested too see your dyno runs and comparisons between having emissions and not having emissions. :thumbsup:

 

[ovrszd]

Well, in that case, I'm totally convinced.

Scientific Evidence has been provided.

Name the make, model, year, engine and power train on this "new DEF machine".

And then lets look it up on the Nebraska Testing Site, just to see if they've rated it.

Because we all know, a single, solitary personal anecdote proves everything.

The Internet can rest now.

Since you are now totally convinced and can rest, there's no need to provide anything.

 

[ovrszd]

I am sure there is a definite reduction in power with the different emissions systems. I don't think it is very much on smaller HP units. As HP increases the amount of loss would be more.

Anyway I just ordered a new 48 Hp tractor that claims 40 PTO Hp. The funny thing is both geared and HST are advertised as 40 PTO Hp. I know one of them is not correct. I hope to put mine on a PTO Dyno when I get it to find out what it is producing. Then I will delete the emissions stuff and will have it tested again. That should clear things up. I am sure there will be an increase to some degree but don't expect more than a few HP.

At full load I estimate the loss to be 10%. Since I am at full load so frequently that is a substantial loss of production at the end of the day.

 

[Texasmark]

Great.... if this is true then the 25hp will provide the same HP as the 35.... great... and I thought I was on my way to the correct decision (MF, Branson, etc). Back to the drawing board.

My 2400 has way more power than the frame can handle.....when I get in tough going the tires spin, the engine doesn't lug and that's with a loader and 2 sets of tire weights....all that I could get mounted to the rear wheels and regardless of tire type. Using "small" wheels up front, makes for some really tight turning..........

 

[Texasmark]

Easy now guys. There are pages and pages and pages of posts on here from owners that have replaced older tractors with new Tier IV tractors and noticed the power loss.

For me it's proven in larger HP variations. We replaced a 255HP pre DEF machine with a 255HP DEF machine and have noticed considerable loss. When I questioned this loss the manufacturer said the HP is calculated before the emissions equipment. This machine makes no exhaust noise at all. Everyone that is around it when working comments on how quiet it is. HP is lost during that process. There's no escaping that.

So let's not start name calling and spatting like little kids over this. Let's just look at the fact that emissions eat HP. This happens in all types of engines. It's also one reason we continually see larger HP engines being produced to do the same tasks as smaller ones used to. If not properly managed, some systems will actually detune their engine during Regen. Again, there are pages and pages and pages of posts about this.

Along the lines of your comment: I accidentally bought a MF muffler with a baffle (you couldn't see through a straight muffler) and put it on my Ford 3000. Cranked it up and it just wouldn't run. After some thought, I took a pipe and knocked the baffle out of the thing whereby I could see through the muffler. Put it back on the tractor and it ran like before.

Engines are air pumps, air in, air out. Stick a mesh/honeycomb in the path and you are blocking air, limiting HP. If you don't increase the area of the air movement, you are going to have reduced performance. As I read on here, "Slowpoke" (if I recall the name correctly) replaced his mesh with a muffler, or a pipe or something but removed it and realized an improvement....for you "seniors" on here, remember the days of the single 1 ⅞ exhaust pipes with "stock" mufflers vs "dual glass packs", and going a step further, changing the OEM exhaust manifold to "Headers" and the resulting increase in performance and all you did was to allow for better air flow.

 

[Jchonline]

You have the same problem many of us have...needs big for acreage, but small for the details (trails). Most would wide the ATV trails to the width of the mower and call it a day. If you dont want to do that, then you will need to get a 2nd machine or rent to keep cleared (maybe just a riding mower). Now on to the Tier 4...it has been a non issue for me. It would be a non issue for future purchase as well.

 

[ovrszd]

Along the lines of your comment: I accidentally bought a MF muffler with a baffle (you couldn't see through a straight muffler) and put it on my Ford 3000. Cranked it up and it just wouldn't run. After some thought, I took a pipe and knocked the baffle out of the thing whereby I could see through the muffler. Put it back on the tractor and it ran like before.

Engines are air pumps, air in, air out. Stick a mesh/honeycomb in the path and you are blocking air, limiting HP. If you don't increase the area of the air movement, you are going to have reduced performance. As I read on here, "Slowpoke" (if I recall the name correctly) replaced his mesh with a muffler, or a pipe or something but removed it and realized an improvement....for you "seniors" on here, remember the days of the single 1 ⅞ exhaust pipes with "stock" mufflers vs "dual glass packs", and going a step further, changing the OEM exhaust manifold to "Headers" and the resulting increase in performance and all you did was to allow for better air flow.

On my friend's new JD large AG tractors the DPF is huge. Guessing 3-4ft long 1-1.5ft in diameter.

On the machine I'm referencing there are two in series. No exhaust noise that can be heard above the cooling fan noise. No doubt that eats HP.

The "argument" of some here is that the manufacturer would not deceive the consumer with misleading numbers. I have no way to prove or disprove that. All I have is olerator exlerience with two idntical engines. One pre DEF, one post DEF. as I stated above, 10% estimated loss of power to the ground. Manufacturer admits this loss. Their answer was "yous should have purchased next size up which is 20HP gain. Hmmmm,,,, that's very closed to the HP loss that I've noticed. Would be nice if they had mentioned that small detail before purchase.

 

[Bavarian]

Just my two cents.

The way i see the OP's situation, he might not have anissue with a DPF tractor. He has a high percentage of high load operation while mowing compared to puttering around for trail maintenance.

Like mentioned before, there are new models out there, above 25 Hp and without DPF. Massey was mentioned already, I think I didn't see Mahindra mentioned. There are even models available above the 70 HP threshold without DPF/DEF.
The Massey 4707 as mentioned already and if I'm not entirely wrong, the new Kioti PX series with the Doosan engine up to 115HP.

As far as catalytic converters: I'm operating a highway truck with a 2006 Cat Acert engine in it. To comply with the 2004 EPA regulations, Cat had to put a catalytic converter in the exhaust. About two years ago, at approximately 40000 hours that converter plugged up. I bought that truck used and it had about 13000 hours of idling time on it back then. I put a APU on and have next to zero idling time.
For me, a catalytic converter would not scare me at all. A DPF is a whole different story.

Merry Christmas by the way, stay warm.

 

[ruffdog]

Along the lines of your comment: I accidentally bought a MF muffler with a baffle (you couldn't see through a straight muffler) and put it on my Ford 3000. Cranked it up and it just wouldn't run. After some thought, I took a pipe and knocked the baffle out of the thing whereby I could see through the muffler. Put it back on the tractor and it ran like before.

Engines are air pumps, air in, air out. Stick a mesh/honeycomb in the path and you are blocking air, limiting HP. If you don't increase the area of the air movement, you are going to have reduced performance. As I read on here, "Slowpoke" (if I recall the name correctly) replaced his mesh with a muffler, or a pipe or something but removed it and realized an improvement....for you "seniors" on here, remember the days of the single 1 ⅞ exhaust pipes with "stock" mufflers vs "dual glass packs", and going a step further, changing the OEM exhaust manifold to "Headers" and the resulting increase in performance and all you did was to allow for better air flow.

Maybe after all the years of making engines as noisy as they can be, you just couldn't HEAR the Ford 3000 running with the quiet muffler so you thought it wasn't running? I sure wouldn't like to go back to "the days" of engines being noisy, dirty, low on power, and drinks fuel.

 

[ovrszd]

I sure wouldn't like to go back to "the days" of engines being noisy, dirty, low on power, and drinks fuel.

I agree. At 250hrs the inside of the exhaust stack is just as clean as it was the day we got it.

We are definitely building more HP from smaller engines now. That's not necessarily a good thing. In large HP machines there have been some mistakes made in that regard. Some manufacturers have corrected their mistake and went back to larger displacement engines. As the old saying goes, "no replacement for displacement".

I think in a decade or so no one will be using DEF to control emissions. I think it's a horrible solution. I think the manufacturers were rushed by EPA deadlines and had to come up with something quick. Someone created the DEF system. All manufacturers that were still lost in regards to a solution jumped on the bandwagon. For that reason I look at EPA with a bit of disdain.

 

[K5lwq]

:

At full load I estimate the loss to be 10%. Since I am at full load so frequently that is a substantial loss of production at the end of the day.

I would agree you are probably correct at 10%. When we were farming 8 rows at a time, every tractor we got we turned up at least 10%. We needed every bit we could get out of them to put in almost 6,000 acres of row crop every year. Then taking care of the remaining 9,000 acres pasture and timberland, those poor tractors never rested. If we lost 10% power I am not sure we could have done it.

Even though I don't need that kind of power anymore, I hate giving any up. Also I pretty much run my tractor at full power and use gears to control speed. Most likely, I would not have much problem with the emissions system on the Branson I just ordered but as soon as I get a good plan on how I want to delete it, gone it will be! :thumbsup:

 

[Texasmark]

Maybe after all the years of making engines as noisy as they can be, you just couldn't HEAR the Ford 3000 running with the quiet muffler so you thought it wasn't running? I sure wouldn't like to go back to "the days" of engines being noisy, dirty, low on power, and drinks fuel.

Nice try. Any idiot can realize an engine that is running VS one that is just coughing and farting on the starter.

 

[pattycake]

FYI: I ended up getting a new Massey Fergusen 1735M - no regen. Being delivered today.

I was previously convinced that I only wanted a Kubota or a Kioti but after all the comments in this thread, I elected to go with the Massey Fergusen. Hope I made the right decision.

 

[jeff9366]

FYI: I ended up getting a new Massey Fergusen 1735M - no regen. Being delivered today.

Enjoy your new tractor. A fast decision by the standards of T-B-N!

 

[stephenh]

I am one of the new owners of a new Kubota [L4710] and can affirm, again, the paucity of info' regarding the regen thing. I mostly use my tractor to plow snow from our private road, and the terrain is very steep. Very. My past two Kubotas without regen system I ran a lot at 1500 RPM or even less, no need to power up for pushing snow downhill on an 8-degree narrow drive and slick surface, hillside off the driveway is as steep in places as 50 degrees.

Therefore, during our first really cold snowstorm in October, 10 degrees and two feet of white stuff, imagine my dismay when the tractor, after about 20 minutes, began to run so rough I couldn't plow, plus enormous clouds of white fuel exhaust. Called service dept of dealer, manager acted clueless but no help. Emailed Kubota [which I've done before with good info returned] and they replied I needed to talk to service dept. of dealer.

Owner manual for tractor pathetic.

I finally got on YouTube and found a number of videos discussing, explaining, and giving advice about this problem. Then I re-joined this forum and found more.

Now, I so far am doing better; I began running the tractor at a lower gear with higher RPM. Bugs me, though I'm getting used to it. I rarely let it idle for long, just switch it off and then back on when needed. It goes against my grain to be unable to use the tractor for any length of time at lower RPM. But I sold the other tractors, and this is what I have.

It takes a bit of re-wiring one's habits of engine running [I still refuse to start a cold engine and race it immediately at 2000+ RPM for warm-up, which is what one Kubota mechanic told me to do: "Man, soon's you let go of the ignition key, jam that throttle up to 2000 or even 2500 for 15-20 minutes." I gradually bring it up from 1000 RPM to 1500 over a period of five minutes or so. So far this is working ok.

 

[fried1765]

I am one of the new owners of a new Kubota [L4710] and can affirm, again, the paucity of info' regarding the regen thing. I mostly use my tractor to plow snow from our private road, and the terrain is very steep. Very. My past two Kubotas without regen system I ran a lot at 1500 RPM or even less, no need to power up for pushing snow downhill on an 8-degree narrow drive and slick surface, hillside off the driveway is as steep in places as 50 degrees.

Therefore, during our first really cold snowstorm in October, 10 degrees and two feet of white stuff, imagine my dismay when the tractor, after about 20 minutes, began to run so rough I couldn't plow, plus enormous clouds of white fuel exhaust. Called service dept of dealer, manager acted clueless but no help. Emailed Kubota [which I've done before with good info returned] and they replied I needed to talk to service dept. of dealer.

Owner manual for tractor pathetic.

I finally got on YouTube and found a number of videos discussing, explaining, and giving advice about this problem. Then I re-joined this forum and found more.

Now, I so far am doing better; I began running the tractor at a lower gear with higher RPM. Bugs me, though I'm getting used to it. I rarely let it idle for long, just switch it off and then back on when needed. It goes against my grain to be unable to use the tractor for any length of time at lower RPM. But I sold the other tractors, and this is what I have.

It takes a bit of re-wiring one's habits of engine running [I still refuse to start a cold engine and race it immediately at 2000+ RPM for warm-up, which is what one Kubota mechanic told me to do: "Man, soon's you let go of the ignition key, jam that throttle up to 2000 or even 2500 for 15-20 minutes." I gradually bring it up from 1000 RPM to 1500 over a period of five minutes or so. So far this is working ok.

For those advocating high RPM...... those pistons/rods/valves etc. all moving at high RPM, will make those engines last so much longer?
Of course!
I suppose the new oils eliminate all high RPM wear.

 

[pattycake]

Enjoy your new tractor. A fast decision by the standards of T-B-N!

Actually, I've been looking for several months - knew what I DIDN'T want, or what I THOUGHT I didn't want. This thread confirmed what I didn't want.... and led me to find what I did want - a new quality tractor 35+hp, with no regen. Thank you TBN and those in this thread to showed me the light

 

[deserteagle71]

It takes a bit of re-wiring one's habits of engine running [I still refuse to start a cold engine and race it immediately at 2000+ RPM for warm-up, which is what one Kubota mechanic told me to do: "Man, soon's you let go of the ignition key, jam that throttle up to 2000 or even 2500 for 15-20 minutes." I gradually bring it up from 1000 RPM to 1500 over a period of five minutes or so. So far this is working ok.

I can't believe some of the crap supposed "experts" throw out there. Start the tractor and immediately floor the throttle?? That's looking to destroy your tractor right away!

Here's some relevant snips from my Kubota's owner's manual:

So the tractor needs to be warmed up at about 50% of rated rpm for 10 minutes before operating. With my Kubota that means at about 1100-1200 rpm. Idle speed is 900 rpm so it is to be warmed up at just above idle!

The mechanic who advised you to run your tractor at full rpm right after starting it is obviously hoping you'll be bringing in more work for him to do!

 

[Jstpssng]

^^^^
It's amazing how much you can learn from reading the owner's manual.

Congratulations to the OP for your new purchase. Hopefully it will give you many years of trouble free service.