Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[Egon]

Some folks can’t discern at what point they cannot realize that they just do not know what they do not know.

I do know that my knowledge and ability to understand is very very limited.

 

[Agvg]

The new van where I'm hired in at the moment, hope to drive it soon, and it's of course 100% electric.

 

[Agvg]

Electric Vans - VW Electric Vehicles | Volkswagen UK

 

[Gale Hawkins]

The new van where I'm hired in at the moment, hope to drive it soon, and it's of course 100% electric.View attachment 635715

That is a nice looking EV. Do you know the size of the battery. I saw a range of 107 mentioned but not sure if it was in miles or not. Will you have it full time or will it be parked at the company, etc when not in use.

 

[Agvg]

I'm just hired so I get what car that's are available, but I'm going to ask for a test drive but at the moment it's ice and snow and no fun to test anything of cars. They have just had it for a couple of days so not much use yet.

 

[/pine]

When it comes to finding new elements and discovering new and larger sources of rare Earth elements etc...Space (moon, astroids etc.) is getting most of the press and media exposure...BUT...
...Where the real action and fruitful results will come from first is the ocean depths...This is where the oil companies already have an advantage due to their expertise in submarine (mining) technologies...

Deep-Sea Mining and the Race to the Bottom of the Ocean - The Atlantic

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Some folks can’t discern at what point they cannot realize that they just do not know what they do not know.

I do know that my knowledge and ability to understand is very very limited.

I think most of us can relate to that fact. I just read a 22 year old book by Carl Sagan a scientist called The Demon-Haunted World Science as a Candle in the Dark. This book was helpful in understanding some to the EV demon haunted posts. EV's can sometimes seem like demons until we light a candle of EV science.

Turning 69 next month as a student for a lifetime it boggles my mind how little I know and much of what I know is no longer "factual". It has been about six months since I seriously started trying to erase my ignorance about EV's for transportation. After 3 months of EV ownership I am just scratching the surface even after buying one with a premature dying battery to force me to learn faster. It is at a Nissan dealership since it triggered the 8 year battery coverage in just a little over 3 years. They report findings to the home office and we go from there.

Nine years ago I did buy a 2006 EZGO 36 volt PDS golf cart with Regen feature to start doing on the road driver's ed when the kids were 13. That was helpful for both of them as well myself. We live on a hill and if it starts rolling down a hill if the parking brake is not set the max speed it will go is 2 MPH. The lead acid battery based server back up system at work was helpful in understanding battery care for longevity at was not a cost free education. The Leaf was not some strange technology at our house when I brought it home in Oct.

The advances in solar battery technology was something that I did not know about until this morning due to this thread. When it comes to EV's, medicine or religion it boggles my mind what myths past as being factual with no evidence given to support the myths as being factual until I remember that is/was me.

 

[California]

One definition for someone who has earned a PhD after years of study is they are familiar with all the theories related to their specialty - also they know why some of those theories are mistaken so they can effectively refute them when facing someone with less expertise.

And someone well educated in a subject understands where there are 'known unknowns', identifiable gaps in their own knowledge, as well as has an appreciation that there are 'unknown unknowns', topics they suspect may exist that are not yet understood by anyone.

In contrast to this perspective ....

 

[Gale Hawkins]

This video is about Telsa battery plans. I did not know about their purchase of HiBar Systems.

The Future of Tesla Batteries: Here's What you can Expect - YouTube

Tesla reportedly bought a company for high-speed battery manufacturing

Tesla Acquires Battery Manufacturer Hibar - YouTube

Tesla Buys DeepScale and Hibar Systems! - TTN Bite Sized - YouTube

 

[Industrial Toys]

I have the Carl Sagan Book on my shelf. I believe there is much truth in it, and yet he being a scientist has acute tunnel vision. Curious what he would say about "Spooky Action At A Distance"? Einsteins statement about what became the bizarre field of quantum physics.

 

[Grumpycat]

Or just an ANTI science authoritarian?

As I posted the famous quote from the 1800's claiming everything has already been invented so the patent office should close.

I lost track when Tesla hit rev F of the Model S battery back in 2014 or 2015. Rev B was the first to accept 120 kW charge rate. Tesla has not been striving to increase storage density so much as to reduce material costs and improve durability. Believe the (7,104) 18650 cells in my Model S were manufactured in Japan by Panasonic but the Model 3 uses a variant Tesla is calling a 2170 built in the Nevada Gigafactory as a joint venture with Panasonic. The 18650 is 18mm in diameter, 65.0 in length. Continuing the pattern 2170 should be a 21700 as it is 21mm in diameter and 70mm long. No one is saying why, only that the interior has a different shape. The newer Model 3 Long Range can accept charge rates as high as 250 kW using these newer cells.

An issue is for more capacity one needs more meat between the anode and cathode. But the larger/more there is the harder it is to uniformly charge/discharge everything. Tesla slapped conventional "everybody knows we need bigger cells!" wisdom in the face with the Roadster by using thousands of small "laptop" batteries rather than fewer large. Everyone else seems to still be on the big-cell path while Tesla is happy to perfect relatively inexpensive small cells in arrays under a BCM, and then string multiple BCMs together to make whatever sized battery they wish. Is my understanding the 85 kWh battery in my S has 19 such modules but also told there are 7,104 cells which does not divide evenly by 19. Divides by 16 for 444 cells per module.

Back in 2005 the Prevailing Wisdom claimed The Only Way To An EV Future is NiMH! Toyota was forced to use cells smaller than 7AH in the Prius and seemingly not smart enough to build an EV using lots of little cells.

The spat between Panasonic and Chevron/Texaco/Cobasys/Ovonics was over large cell NiMH. Panasonic believed they were in the right but a court disagreed. Panasonic paid a fine and ceased production of the cells used in the all-electric Toyota RAV4 (California only) when Chevron demanded too high of a royalty. Ironically Chevron would never perfect mass production of large cell NiMH, could only make small batches with high failure rates.

Patent encumbrance of large automotive NiMH batteries - Wikipedia

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Jack Rickard’s “The Tesla Conspiracy” | In Depth - YouTube

While I have never heard of the older EV builder and do not know about shorting stock and stuff yet over the past few months I decided the same thing about the tech side of Tesla. I mean the Model 3 killer that Nissan is talking about 2021? is estimated to sale for about $45K.

Other makers have even used Tesla batteries to track test their early EV's (GM and Toyota per Elon Musk).

Self driving wise Tesla is light years ahead of the others and it will be 5-10 years before the other car guys gather as much real road driving data to data mine.

In short why would anyone buy a non Tesla if they can come up with $40K-$60K for an ICE option like a Ford F-150 or Mustang?

The big reason I see some going for another brand would be because Tesla today can not build the number of EV's that the market place is demanding.

Grumpycat your link in your above post is troubling to me after just watching the link that I posted in this thread. Where true or not it does look like Big Old may have negatively retarded potential EV sales which in the long run may have been a plus for others like Tesla and Nissan. I am not sure GM was pro EV at that point in time due to maybe hurting their ICE profits.

 

[grsthegreat]

Just as a side note...
I was watching the show “Last man on Earth” today and the group was driving towards a Portland. One character climbs out of her Tesla and closes the door. Then the car drove off without her..... I almost rolled on the floor in laughter.

 

[JamesHW]

Not related to EV vs ICE, but an example of a recent scientific development at Chalmers University in Sweden where they have developed a molecule that can receive energy from the sun, becoming an isomer and can be stored for an extended period and when exposed to a catalyst changes back to its original form and increasing in temperature 140 degrees. The isomer once it has given up its heat converts back to its original form and can be the recycled through the solar collector to be used or stored. Currently the molecule only utilizes the UV and blue spectrum and the belief is it can be improved to achieve a higher temperature output.

The molecule, made from carbon, hydrogen and nitrogen, has the unique property that when it is hit by sunlight, it is transformed into an energy-rich isomer - a molecule which consists of the same atoms, but bound together in a different way.

This isomer can then be stored for use when that energy is later needed - for example, at night or in winter. It is in a liquid form and is adapted for use in a solar energy system, which the researchers have named MOST (Molecular Solar Thermal Energy Storage). In just the last year, the research team have made great advances in the development of MOST.

"The energy in this isomer can now be stored for up to 18 years. And when we come to extract the energy and use it, we get a warmth increase which is greater than we dared hope for," says the leader of the research team, Kasper Moth-Poulsen, Professor at the Department of Chemistry and Chemical Engineering.

Here is a scientific paper on the process.

 

[buickanddeere]

Hybrid vehicle
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


A hybrid vehicle uses two or more distinct types of power, such as internal combustion engine to drive an electric generator that powers an electric motor, e.g. in diesel-electric trains using diesel engines to drive an electric generator that powers an electric motor, and submarines that use diesels when surfaced and batteries when submerged. Other means to store energy include pressurized fluid in hydraulic hybrids.

The basic principle with hybrid vehicles is that the different motors work better at different speeds; the electric motor is more efficient at producing torque, or turning power, and the combustion engine is better for maintaining high speed (better than typical electric motor). Switching from one to the other at the proper time while speeding up yields a win-win in terms of energy efficiency, as such that translates into greater fuel efficiency, for example.

Have you ever seen a diesel electric locomotive and how it functions ? This is not Europe where some locomotives are duel power. EMD SD75I - Wikipedia

 

[Egon]

Locomotive’s ::

Some more information. [video]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_locomotive[/video]

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Not related to EV vs ICE, but an example of a recent scientific development at Chalmers University in Sweden where they have developed a molecule that can receive energy from the sun, becoming an isomer and can be stored for an extended period and when exposed to a catalyst changes back to its original form and increasing in temperature 140 degrees. The isomer once it has given up its heat converts back to its original form and can be the recycled through the solar collector to be used or stored. Currently the molecule only utilizes the UV and blue spectrum and the belief is it can be improved to achieve a higher temperature output.



Here is a scientific paper on the process.

Thanks James for sharing this link. It seems this technology research is still on going with real promise. Being able to store this solar energy for up to 18 months could find a lot of uses and help lower demands on the current electric grid.

I do not have a link in hand but it seems grid wise we have spare capacity in most of the USA. Someone computed for the North East USA if today 100% of the population started driving Telsa cars and charging from like from midnight to 6 AM there would be a 10% short fall in capacity tomorrow morning.

If that reflects reality then we do not have to off load that much of demand on the current grid perhaps. In light of it being maybe 2050 before over half of the cars and trucks are EV types we have time in most of the USA to address beefing up the grid. I plan to follow this MOST technology development and usage.

 

[California]

...It seems this technology research is still on going with real promise. Being able to store this solar energy for up to 18 months could find a lot of uses and help lower demands on the current electric grid.

I saw the following and it made me think of this thread. These 6 Incredible Discoveries From The Past Decade Have Changed Science Forever

One is: "doctors had three main weapons to fight cancer: surgery, chemotherapy, radiation. The 2010s saw the rise of a fourth: immunotherapy, leveraging the body's own immune system to target tumor cells. One of the most advanced techniques ... a patient's T-cells - part of their immune system - are collected from their blood, modified and reinfused into the body." No mention that results might be limited by the periodic table.

 

[JamesHW]

Thanks James for sharing this link. It seems this technology research is still on going with real promise. Being able to store this solar energy for up to 18 months could find a lot of uses and help lower demands on the current electric grid.

I do not have a link in hand but it seems grid wise we have spare capacity in most of the USA. Someone computed for the North East USA if today 100% of the population started driving Telsa cars and charging from like from midnight to 6 AM there would be a 10% short fall in capacity tomorrow morning.

If that reflects reality then we do not have to off load that much of demand on the current grid perhaps. In light of it being maybe 2050 before over half of the cars and trucks are EV types we have time in most of the USA to address beefing up the grid. I plan to follow this MOST technology development and usage.

Thanks Gale, good observations...but one correction, the energized isomers are said to be storable for 18 years (that first article wasn’t clear on that).

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Thanks Gale, good observations...but one correction, the energized isomers are said to be storable for 18 years (that first article wasn’t clear on that).

Emissions-free energy system saves heat from the summer sun for winter -- ScienceDaily

""The energy in this isomer can now be stored for up to 18 years. And when we come to extract the energy and use it, we get a warmth increase which is greater than we dared hope for," says the leader of the research team, Kasper Moth-Poulsen, Professor at the Department of Chemistry and Chemical Engineering."

I know vision is psychological and not physiological so my old brain must to have converted 18 years into 18 months because it could not believe 18 years.

Years ago I came to understand today's science fiction often becomes tomorrow's reality.

Elon Musk is proving his vision for earth and space travel can be realized as time marches forward.

Thanks again for bringing this MOST concept to this page.