Tapping into a well line?

[MNBobcat]

We have a deep well and it connects inside the house to a pressure tank. The pressure tank as a pressure regulator on it and I assume a switch that turns the pump on.

I want to connect to the main line before it goes into the pressure regulator or tank and tee off of that to go to an irrigation system in the yard. The theory being I'll get more water volume and pressure before the pressure regulator reduces it. The part I'm having trouble planning out is what would I need in order to turn the punp on?

 

[Deere Dude]

I did something like that by teeing in and running a line to a pole shed and sprinklers. You just need a valve turning on or off and for blowing the lines out if it will freeze in your area, I don't think you will gain any pressure or volume no matter where you tap into the line except maybe if you use a big line, but the pressure depends on how or if the pump can keep up or not.

 

[MF RED in MT]

A frost free yard hydrant connected to your well supply line for the house or a frost free hose bib connected to your well supply line under your crawl space (assuming you have a crawl space and your pressure tank is located in your house?) will supply the same amount of water/pressure when used + - .

Depending on your location in the country will dictate the depth of your well pump supply line to your house.

As long as you do not have a check valve between the hydrant/hose bib and the pressure tank, the water will be on demand until the pressure tanks pressure switch reaches the low point of pressure and then calls for your well pump to turn on.

At that point you should have the largest pressure for the hydrant/hose bib until the tank fills and then calls for the well pump to shut off.

I believe an addition to the system called a "cycling valve" might be what you are looking for to have the maximum water pressure at the hydrant/hose bib, but I am not familiar with that except when ever you open any faucet in your house, this cycling valve will cause your well pump to turn on (I think that's how it works?).


For me I would not want my well pump turning on at all the times that a fuacet is turned on for a few seconds/minutes.

Hope this might help you, and others with better knowledge may add to your thread.

KC

 

[PILOON]

Bladder tanks even out the tap pressure and only fire up when pressure drops to the low setting.
With a properly adjusted bladder system you hardly ever know when the pump cycles.
To prevent cycling often caused by minute leaks I always like to install an in line check valve close to the tank and not rely only on the foot valve or submerged well pump.

Actually in some cases, (like when line freeze is a possibility) a check valve at tank with a planned 'slow leak' at the pump will solve many a pipe freezing problem.
In fact a special foot (pump valve) valve can be used to allow a 'leak down' for those problem freeze lines.

 

[Valveman]

We have a deep well and it connects inside the house to a pressure tank. The pressure tank as a pressure regulator on it and I assume a switch that turns the pump on.

I want to connect to the main line before it goes into the pressure regulator or tank and tee off of that to go to an irrigation system in the yard. The theory being I'll get more water volume and pressure before the pressure regulator reduces it. The part I'm having trouble planning out is what would I need in order to turn the punp on?

That is not a pressure regulator but instead a pressure switch on the tank. It will turn the pump on when the tank is empty and the pressure falls to like 40 PSI, then it will turn the pump off when the tank is full and the pressure is at 60 PSI. It doesn't matter where you tap into the line, as long as there is no check valve at the tank. And you don't want a check valve at the tank as it can cause water hammer and air in the lines. And yes it is hard to tell when the pump is cycling on and off, but it is still very hard on the pump.

In the old days we would tap into the line where ever we wanted and just make sure our irrigation sprinklers put out as much water as the pump was designed to produce. If you have a 15 GPM pump, using 15 GPM for EVERY sprinkler zone was the only way to keep the pump from cycling itself to death. For the last 28 years I have been installing a Cycle Stop Valve to keep the pump from cycling no matter how much or how little water I use. With a CSV you can water anyway you want without hurting the pump. But the CSV needs to be installed before the pressure tank and before any water lines tee off. You could install it at the tank if you tee off to the irrigation after the tank and switch.

 

[Egon]

Bladder tanks even out the tap pressure and only fire up when pressure drops to the low setting.
With a properly adjusted bladder system you hardly ever know when the pump cycles.
To prevent cycling often caused by minute leaks I always like to install an in line check valve close to the tank and not rely only on the foot valve or submerged well pump.

Actually in some cases, (like when line freeze is a possibility) a check valve at tank with a planned 'slow leak' at the pump will solve many a pipe freezing problem.
In fact a special foot (pump valve) valve can be used to allow a 'leak down' for those problem freeze lines.

Recall all the hand operated outside well pumps with the pin hole in the tubing below the frost level.

 

[GSVette]

That is not a pressure regulator but instead a pressure switch on the tank. It will turn the pump on when the tank is empty and the pressure falls to like 40 PSI, then it will turn the pump off when the tank is full and the pressure is at 60 PSI. It doesn't matter where you tap into the line, as long as there is no check valve at the tank. And you don't want a check valve at the tank as it can cause water hammer and air in the lines. And yes it is hard to tell when the pump is cycling on and off, but it is still very hard on the pump.

In the old days we would tap into the line where ever we wanted and just make sure our irrigation sprinklers put out as much water as the pump was designed to produce. If you have a 15 GPM pump, using 15 GPM for EVERY sprinkler zone was the only way to keep the pump from cycling itself to death. For the last 28 years I have been installing a Cycle Stop Valve to keep the pump from cycling no matter how much or how little water I use. With a CSV you can water anyway you want without hurting the pump. But the CSV needs to be installed before the pressure tank and before any water lines tee off. You could install it at the tank if you tee off to the irrigation after the tank and switch.

So I have a csv in my system and have a frost free hydrant between the pitless and the csv. I had been contemplating using the hydrant occasionally for watering. You note above “But the CSV needs to be installed before the pressure tank and before any water lines tee off.”-I assume this is recommended because otherwise the csv won’t work when these lines are open.

Would occasional ( ie using my hydrant for occasional watering) cause any real issues?

Thanks

 

[Valveman]

Any water line that tees off prior to the CSV is not controlled by the CSV. But you can still use that hydrant if you are careful to use as much water as the pump can produce, so the pump does not cycle on and off. Or you can use very little water from that hydrant like to just fill a dog water bowl. But do not use any flow rate in between as the pump will cycle fairly rapidly. Any tee or hydrant after the CSV can be used anyway you want without a care.

 

[Mat4644]

If a pump delivers 20 gpm and your using 5 and the CSV keeps the pump running continuous then your running too much back pressure to the pump. Google this and you will find threads of people damaging pumps with CSVs.

 

[Valveman]

Lol Mat! In almost 30 years and a million installed there has never been a pump damaged in the least by a CSV. To the contrary, every pump with a CSV has lasted much longer than normal already. Back pressure is a good thing for pumps. It makes a pump draw lower amps, run cooler, and is what eliminates the the destructive on/off cycling. But these quotes do show the lack of knowledge by so called professional pump installers. As a matter of fact that one statement or question can be used to tell if your "pump professional" has any idea what he is talking about. When you here someone saying back pressure is bad for a pump or that cycling on'off doesn't hurt pumps, find a different pump man. If they don't know this one simple thing about pumps they have a lot to learn and you need to run away as fast as you can.

I will say this again. In 1994 Goulds and several other pump companies blacklisted the CSV as a disruptive product. They told their employees, "The CSV makes pumps last longer and use smaller pressure tanks. Goulds makes pumps and tanks, so any of their employees who mention a CSV would be fired immediately." The best pump engineers in the world couldn't find a single flaw with the CSV and they were afraid it will cut into their replacement pump business, which is does. Makes "techs" who say things like you quoted look pretty stupid. You won't hear any of the pump engineers or anyone who knows what they are talking about say something like that.

The best proof is from people who have a CSV and know how many problems they solve. Here are a few hundred you can read.
Reviews – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

 

[Mat4644]

Do you have a pressure regulator or pressure switch installed?. Many install a sprinkler booster pump on the irrigation line to get more flow.

 

[Mat4644]

Never good running any type of pump long periods over its recommended pressure. Currently 26 years on a properly sized pressure tank and farm use for the current pump. They are more designed to cycle than to run long periods over pressure.

 

[Valveman]

Never good running any type of pump long periods over its recommended pressure. Currently 26 years on a properly sized pressure tank and farm use for the current pump. They are more designed to cycle than to run long periods over pressure.

That is certainly not true! Pumps are made to run "continuously" as in 24/7/365. It says so right on the side of any pump/motor. "Duty... Cont" for continuous duty. You are either just lucky to have a pump last 26 years, or you know how to irrigate without causing the pump to cycle on and off. I guarantee if your sprinklers are mis-matched to your pump, it will cycle itself to death in 2-6 years and no way will last 26 years. I have a stock water well pump that hasn't turned off in over 18 years. I expect it to last longer than my house well pump which even with a CSV, cycles on and off when needed. There are strict limits to the number of times a pump can cycle on/off, and those limits are published. These limits on cycling are only to make the pump last through the warranty period, as the less cycling the better.

Last week one of my customers told me why so many people think like that. It is called "Hysterical Denial". People get hysterical and even angry with me for explaining something differently than the way they always thought it worked. They should do a little research to uncover the facts instead of just denying things they don't understand.

Counter intuitive things people have wrong about pumps.

Pumps like to run 24/7/365.
Resting pumps is not good.
Restricting a pump with a valve makes it draw lower amps and run cooler.
Running just a little water thinking is is easier on the pump, is the worst thing you can do, unless you have a CSV.
Variable Speed Pumps save energy. Wrong! Varying the speed increases energy per gallon pumped.

So many things about pumps work just the opposite of what our intuitive brains tell us, that it is no wonder even most pump engineers don't really understand. And the pump engineers who do understand how a CSV works don't want you to know, as that would cut into their repeat pump sales.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

First off I'm not a well and pump expert, but I don't believe for a second that it is good for a pump to run 24/7 /365 , didn't say it couldn't just can't believe that it would be a good thing, if that's the case why have a pressure switch. Lastly Out of curiosity on your stock tank that hasn't turned off in over 18 years where does all the excess water go? Just curious.

 

[Valveman]

First off I'm not a well and pump expert, but I don't believe for a second that it is good for a pump to run 24/7 /365 , didn't say it couldn't just can't believe that it would be a good thing, if that's the case why have a pressure switch. Lastly Out of curiosity on your stock tank that hasn't turned off in over 18 years where does all the excess water go? Just curious.

Like I said, so many things about pumps are counter intuitive, and that is one of them. When a submersible pump is running there is a film of water between all the bearing surfaces which makes it completely friction-less. But just like a truck engine, when it first starts all the bearing surfaces are dry and wear happens. Once the pump is up and running, it is just like when the oil pump finally gets oil circulating in a truck engine, all the wear stops happening. Ask any trucker why they leave those engines running all night. They will tell you their engines last longer if they never turn them off. Look up Kingsbury thrust bearings. You will see they use them in dynamos like at the Hoover dam. Some of those bearings have been running 24/7/365 for over 75 years. I saw a report where they inspected one a few years ago and said it had absolutely zero wear and was good for at least another 75 years.

My stock water pump feeds 3 GPM to an earth tank, similar to the windmill it replaced. If the earth tank ever gets full, it overflows into a creek. But I have only seen that happen a couple of times after some really big rains. This pump has been running over 18 years. The last one only lasted 12 years, as I didn't have it restricted to 3 GPM, and it was obvious it had been pumping a little air all those years. With the latest 7 GPM series pump restricted to 3 GPM, the amps are lower making the motor run cooler, it is no longer pumping air, and I expect it to last more than another 18 years. My children or grandchildren will probably have to finish this thread, as I probably won't be around to see it last another 20+ years. Lol! It would be great if they found this thread after I am long gone and remembered I put that pump in for them in 2001.

Having worked on pumps for over 50 years, I can't count the number of times I heard people say, "I was just using a little water as I didn't want to hurt my pump". It is just counter intuitive to think never turning a pump off is the best thing for it. But pumps like to run 24/7/365. It is the cycling on and off that destroys them. I have been explaining this for 50 years, and I'll bet my grandkids are still explaining this in another quarter of a century. It is a hard concept to understand and many people will just never be able to wrap their heads around it. But that is true of many things.

 

[Darryle]

I built a system similar to what you are asking. I used a clearance sale 4 zone sprinkler controller and valves. I installed a check valve between the house side plumbing and the remaining zones and pump. The controller also doubled as a controller for the pump, it would turn the pump on when a zone opened to prevent the pressure switch from closing. The pressure switch also controlled an injection pump to combat the sulfur smell. I tried it using the pressure switch, but the injection pump put so much chlorine into the house side it would bleach clothing and burn your eyes.


Zone 1 was for a 2500 gallon tank, I used a simple float valve that either completed the circuit when the water level was below the desired capacity and open when full.

Zone 2 was for the garden, we ran perforated pex line and buried it between T-Posts on either end of the garden. We would till either side of the line and that gave us a good enough seed bed that with a garden hoe you could achieve a great seed bed. We would water middle of the day and late at night.

Zone 3 was flower beds and yard near the house, same pex set up as above except we watered only at night and didn't have to worry about tearing up the lines.

It can be done simple, you just have to think outside of the box, mine was more complex because of the injection unit.

 

[Darryle]

ValveMan, is it because of cooling or the actual switching on and off?

 

[Valveman]

I built a system similar to what you are asking. I used a clearance sale 4 zone sprinkler controller and valves. I installed a check valve between the house side plumbing and the remaining zones and pump. The controller also doubled as a controller for the pump, it would turn the pump on when a zone opened to prevent the pressure switch from closing. The pressure switch also controlled an injection pump to combat the sulfur smell. I tried it using the pressure switch, but the injection pump put so much chlorine into the house side it would bleach clothing and burn your eyes.


Zone 1 was for a 2500 gallon tank, I used a simple float valve that either completed the circuit when the water level was below the desired capacity and open when full.

Zone 2 was for the garden, we ran perforated pex line and buried it between T-Posts on either end of the garden. We would till either side of the line and that gave us a good enough seed bed that with a garden hoe you could achieve a great seed bed. We would water middle of the day and late at night.

Zone 3 was flower beds and yard near the house, same pex set up as above except we watered only at night and didn't have to worry about tearing up the lines.

It can be done simple, you just have to think outside of the box, mine was more complex because of the injection unit.

Bypassing the pressure switch like that is one way to prevent cycling. The CSV does something similar by not letting the pressure switch see the off pressure. But the CSV will also control the pressure, where without a CSV the pressure could get really high if you didn't run enough sprinklers. That is a pretty smart way to bypass the injection pump.

 

[Valveman]

ValveMan, is it because of cooling or the actual switching on and off?

In rush current when starting a pump is 6 to 9 times the running amperage. That produces a lot of heat and it takes at least a minute for the heat produced at startup to dissipate through the motor. Also the bearings run dry for a split second on each start. After the amperage drops to normal running amps and the fluid gets between the bearing plate and shoes, the heat produced is minimal and it takes very little water flow past the motor to keep it cool.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

Like I said, so many things about pumps are counter intuitive, and that is one of them. When a submersible pump is running there is a film of water between all the bearing surfaces which makes it completely friction-less. But just like a truck engine, when it first starts all the bearing surfaces are dry and wear happens. Once the pump is up and running, it is just like when the oil pump finally gets oil circulating in a truck engine, all the wear stops happening. Ask any trucker why they leave those engines running all night. They will tell you their engines last longer if they never turn them off. Look up Kingsbury thrust bearings. You will see they use them in dynamos like at the Hoover dam. Some of those bearings have been running 24/7/365 for over 75 years. I saw a report where they inspected one a few years ago and said it had absolutely zero wear and was good for at least another 75 years.

My stock water pump feeds 3 GPM to an earth tank, similar to the windmill it replaced. If the earth tank ever gets full, it overflows into a creek. But I have only seen that happen a couple of times after some really big rains. This pump has been running over 18 years. The last one only lasted 12 years, as I didn't have it restricted to 3 GPM, and it was obvious it had been pumping a little air all those years. With the latest 7 GPM series pump restricted to 3 GPM, the amps are lower making the motor run cooler, it is no longer pumping air, and I expect it to last more than another 18 years. My children or grandchildren will probably have to finish this thread, as I probably won't be around to see it last another 20+ years. Lol! It would be great if they found this thread after I am long gone and remembered I put that pump in for them in 2001.

Having worked on pumps for over 50 years, I can't count the number of times I heard people say, "I was just using a little water as I didn't want to hurt my pump". It is just counter intuitive to think never turning a pump off is the best thing for it. But pumps like to run 24/7/365. It is the cycling on and off that destroys them. I have been explaining this for 50 years, and I'll bet my grandkids are still explaining this in another quarter of a century. It is a hard concept to understand and many people will just never be able to wrap their heads around it. But that is true of many things.

So does this principle apply to above ground shallow well jet pumps as well or strictly deep well submersible?