Tapping into a well line?
- Thread starter MNBobcat
- Start date
Valveman
Platinum Member
That is certainly not true! Pumps are made to run "continuously" as in 24/7/365. It says so right on the side of any pump/motor. "Duty... Cont" for continuous duty. You are either just lucky to have a pump last 26 years, or you know how to irrigate without causing the pump to cycle on and off. I guarantee if your sprinklers are mis-matched to your pump, it will cycle itself to death in 2-6 years and no way will last 26 years. I have a stock water well pump that hasn't turned off in over 18 years. I expect it to last longer than my house well pump which even with a CSV, cycles on and off when needed. There are strict limits to the number of times a pump can cycle on/off, and those limits are published. These limits on cycling are only to make the pump last through the warranty period, as the less cycling the better.
Last week one of my customers told me why so many people think like that. It is called "Hysterical Denial". People get hysterical and even angry with me for explaining something differently than the way they always thought it worked. They should do a little research to uncover the facts instead of just denying things they don't understand.
Counter intuitive things people have wrong about pumps.
Pumps like to run 24/7/365.
Resting pumps is not good.
Restricting a pump with a valve makes it draw lower amps and run cooler.
Running just a little water thinking is is easier on the pump, is the worst thing you can do, unless you have a CSV.
Variable Speed Pumps save energy. Wrong! Varying the speed increases energy per gallon pumped.
So many things about pumps work just the opposite of what our intuitive brains tell us, that it is no wonder even most pump engineers don't really understand. And the pump engineers who do understand how a CSV works don't want you to know, as that would cut into their repeat pump sales.
Lineman North Florida
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First off I'm not a well and pump expert, but I don't believe for a second that it is good for a pump to run 24/7 /365 , didn't say it couldn't just can't believe that it would be a good thing, if that's the case why have a pressure switch. Lastly Out of curiosity on your stock tank that hasn't turned off in over 18 years where does all the excess water go? Just curious.
Valveman
Platinum Member
Like I said, so many things about pumps are counter intuitive, and that is one of them. When a submersible pump is running there is a film of water between all the bearing surfaces which makes it completely friction-less. But just like a truck engine, when it first starts all the bearing surfaces are dry and wear happens. Once the pump is up and running, it is just like when the oil pump finally gets oil circulating in a truck engine, all the wear stops happening. Ask any trucker why they leave those engines running all night. They will tell you their engines last longer if they never turn them off. Look up Kingsbury thrust bearings. You will see they use them in dynamos like at the Hoover dam. Some of those bearings have been running 24/7/365 for over 75 years. I saw a report where they inspected one a few years ago and said it had absolutely zero wear and was good for at least another 75 years.
My stock water pump feeds 3 GPM to an earth tank, similar to the windmill it replaced. If the earth tank ever gets full, it overflows into a creek. But I have only seen that happen a couple of times after some really big rains. This pump has been running over 18 years. The last one only lasted 12 years, as I didn't have it restricted to 3 GPM, and it was obvious it had been pumping a little air all those years. With the latest 7 GPM series pump restricted to 3 GPM, the amps are lower making the motor run cooler, it is no longer pumping air, and I expect it to last more than another 18 years. My children or grandchildren will probably have to finish this thread, as I probably won't be around to see it last another 20+ years. Lol! It would be great if they found this thread after I am long gone and remembered I put that pump in for them in 2001.
Having worked on pumps for over 50 years, I can't count the number of times I heard people say, "I was just using a little water as I didn't want to hurt my pump". It is just counter intuitive to think never turning a pump off is the best thing for it. But pumps like to run 24/7/365. It is the cycling on and off that destroys them. I have been explaining this for 50 years, and I'll bet my grandkids are still explaining this in another quarter of a century. It is a hard concept to understand and many people will just never be able to wrap their heads around it. But that is true of many things.
Darryle
Silver Member
I built a system similar to what you are asking. I used a clearance sale 4 zone sprinkler controller and valves. I installed a check valve between the house side plumbing and the remaining zones and pump. The controller also doubled as a controller for the pump, it would turn the pump on when a zone opened to prevent the pressure switch from closing. The pressure switch also controlled an injection pump to combat the sulfur smell. I tried it using the pressure switch, but the injection pump put so much chlorine into the house side it would bleach clothing and burn your eyes.
Zone 1 was for a 2500 gallon tank, I used a simple float valve that either completed the circuit when the water level was below the desired capacity and open when full.
Zone 2 was for the garden, we ran perforated pex line and buried it between T-Posts on either end of the garden. We would till either side of the line and that gave us a good enough seed bed that with a garden hoe you could achieve a great seed bed. We would water middle of the day and late at night.
Zone 3 was flower beds and yard near the house, same pex set up as above except we watered only at night and didn't have to worry about tearing up the lines.
It can be done simple, you just have to think outside of the box, mine was more complex because of the injection unit.
Zone 1 was for a 2500 gallon tank, I used a simple float valve that either completed the circuit when the water level was below the desired capacity and open when full.
Zone 2 was for the garden, we ran perforated pex line and buried it between T-Posts on either end of the garden. We would till either side of the line and that gave us a good enough seed bed that with a garden hoe you could achieve a great seed bed. We would water middle of the day and late at night.
Zone 3 was flower beds and yard near the house, same pex set up as above except we watered only at night and didn't have to worry about tearing up the lines.
It can be done simple, you just have to think outside of the box, mine was more complex because of the injection unit.
Darryle
Silver Member
ValveMan, is it because of cooling or the actual switching on and off?
Valveman
Platinum Member
Bypassing the pressure switch like that is one way to prevent cycling. The CSV does something similar by not letting the pressure switch see the off pressure. But the CSV will also control the pressure, where without a CSV the pressure could get really high if you didn't run enough sprinklers. That is a pretty smart way to bypass the injection pump.
Valveman
Platinum Member
In rush current when starting a pump is 6 to 9 times the running amperage. That produces a lot of heat and it takes at least a minute for the heat produced at startup to dissipate through the motor. Also the bearings run dry for a split second on each start. After the amperage drops to normal running amps and the fluid gets between the bearing plate and shoes, the heat produced is minimal and it takes very little water flow past the motor to keep it cool.
Lineman North Florida
Veteran Member
- Joined
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- Tractor
- Farmtrac 360 DTC with FEL & John Deere 5093E with FEL ,Kubota SVL 75-2
Like I said, so many things about pumps are counter intuitive, and that is one of them. When a submersible pump is running there is a film of water between all the bearing surfaces which makes it completely friction-less. But just like a truck engine, when it first starts all the bearing surfaces are dry and wear happens. Once the pump is up and running, it is just like when the oil pump finally gets oil circulating in a truck engine, all the wear stops happening. Ask any trucker why they leave those engines running all night. They will tell you their engines last longer if they never turn them off. Look up Kingsbury thrust bearings. You will see they use them in dynamos like at the Hoover dam. Some of those bearings have been running 24/7/365 for over 75 years. I saw a report where they inspected one a few years ago and said it had absolutely zero wear and was good for at least another 75 years.
My stock water pump feeds 3 GPM to an earth tank, similar to the windmill it replaced. If the earth tank ever gets full, it overflows into a creek. But I have only seen that happen a couple of times after some really big rains. This pump has been running over 18 years. The last one only lasted 12 years, as I didn't have it restricted to 3 GPM, and it was obvious it had been pumping a little air all those years. With the latest 7 GPM series pump restricted to 3 GPM, the amps are lower making the motor run cooler, it is no longer pumping air, and I expect it to last more than another 18 years. My children or grandchildren will probably have to finish this thread, as I probably won't be around to see it last another 20+ years. Lol! It would be great if they found this thread after I am long gone and remembered I put that pump in for them in 2001.
Having worked on pumps for over 50 years, I can't count the number of times I heard people say, "I was just using a little water as I didn't want to hurt my pump". It is just counter intuitive to think never turning a pump off is the best thing for it. But pumps like to run 24/7/365. It is the cycling on and off that destroys them. I have been explaining this for 50 years, and I'll bet my grandkids are still explaining this in another quarter of a century. It is a hard concept to understand and many people will just never be able to wrap their heads around it. But that is true of many things.
So does this principle apply to above ground shallow well jet pumps as well or strictly deep well submersible?