2021 Chevy Silverado 2500HD gas vs. diesel?

[Username Taken]

^ Lol I doubt it. All you need is 10 minutes with a flash tuner to add a crazy HP/Torque boost anyway.

Not anymore. The EPA Stasi has cracked down on that in a big, big, really big way.

You gotta go out-of-Country, Canada, Austria for tuners and if they intercept it at the border, they can keep it and you're out the money. Over a thousand, easy.

Even 'hard' parts like exhaust, the dealers are being forced to close down or face fines in the hundreds of thousands.

Karens are in charge now. And it's only gonna get worse.

Well, unless you're one of the elites that has a Private Jet. They aren't regulated very much at all. And Jet Fuel is essentially diesel.

Welcome to The Occupation™

 

[blee03]

Look at the actual power curve though. Might peak at 4000, but it's well over 400 lbf-ft at 2000rpm already. IE more than a Cummins 12V that used to be the holy grail. People seemed to drive dump trucks and haul heavy trailer loads with those back in the day just fine.... now we're in a crazy HP/Torque war in the diesels. Fun for me as an engineer in the industry, but pretty unnecessary for joe weekender.

Having a broader power band is actually an advantage that gasoline has over diesel, too.....

Yeah 400ft lbs coming in at 2000rpm for a gas powered engine is definitely impressive. I’m guessing this is the first gas engine produced with those kind of TQ numbers.

But a few small changes to a 12v would net some huge gains, probably cost $300 in parts and you could be at 800ft lbs.

As for unnecessary, that would be up to the purchaser to decide.

Some people buy once and be done with it, others buy just enough to get the job done, regret it and buy the stuff they really wanted the next go around.

 

[Username Taken]

You can still get delete tunes, you just have to use a private party that has access to EFI Live software/hardware. If they’ve flashed peoples trucks in the past chances are they still have a huge collection of tune files ready to go

Not really. One of my friends is a pretty good diesel mechanic at a good-sized Indy Shop. He says they're just not really available anymore unless you know the Tuner. Like a relative, a good friend, long, long-time associate. They're going underground.

U.S. sues EZ Lynk for selling vehicle emissions defeat devices

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ez-lynk-usa/u-s-sues-ez-lynk-for-selling-vehicle-emissions-defeat-devices-idUSKBN2B02B9?fbclid=IwAR3BMxGEzLy1zlCSnEh9jYLu4wahdzttaNbHmehd32sVHV0i60FZrGf3u2w Looks like they are trying to take down EZ Lynk

www.duramaxdiesels.com

 

[nikerret]

Not really. One of my friends is a pretty good diesel mechanic at a good-sized Indy Shop. He says they're just not really available anymore unless you know the Tuner. Like a relative, a good friend, long, long-time associate. They're going underground.

U.S. sues EZ Lynk for selling vehicle emissions defeat devices

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ez-lynk-usa/u-s-sues-ez-lynk-for-selling-vehicle-emissions-defeat-devices-idUSKBN2B02B9?fbclid=IwAR3BMxGEzLy1zlCSnEh9jYLu4wahdzttaNbHmehd32sVHV0i60FZrGf3u2w Looks like they are trying to take down EZ Lynk

www.duramaxdiesels.com

I think a lot of the people singing the praises of diesels aren’t aware of the current situation. Comparing your fifteen year old diesel to what is out, right now. Is not a good comparison. Just like comparing the gas engines to what was available fifteen years ago.

A couple of years ago, you could still delete a lot of the diesel crap. Today, it’s very difficult to find a place to do it.

 

[nikerret]

You can short trip a diesel. Just have to know when to shut it off and when it needs to be heated up real hot.
There is NO WAY gas engines are as durable as Diesel engines.
NO WAY. If they were, there would be 800-1500 cubic inch gas engines in heavy trucks, tractors, etc.
They are NOT in the aforementioned vehicles because they lack torque, durability and fuel economy.
Look at it this way, if Diesel engines were $5,000-$10,000 more than gas engines and were the same durability, then heavy equipment and trucks would have gas engines in them.
But they dont.
In framing or complete engine replacement means time and money lost.
That’s why gas engine are practically non existent in heavy use equipment

If you have to know when you can turn them off and when you need to get them hot, that isn’t really a solid platform. How many people know when to do what? When they run two miles to the store and it needs to be run hot, do they run it or just go to the store? From what I’ve seen, they just go to the store.

You do know we are talking about a pickup to pull 10-15k, right? Why would someone put a 800-1500ci engine in a pickup to pull 10-15K?

Yes, you’ll only find a diesel in heavy equipment (definition of heavy equipment can always be argued). We aren’t talking about that.

This is a lot like a tractor with a loader versus a wheel loader (not skid steer). At the top of the tractor range, there is some overlap with the bottom of the wheel loader, but overall, they do and excel in different jobs.

We have already established your application is serviced better by a diesel engine. What I can’t understand is how you got so emotionally invested that a diesel is the only good option, that you’ve managed to completely ignore the successes the current gas engines bring to the table.

 

[Hay Dude]

If you have to know when you can turn them off and when you need to get them hot, that isn’t really a solid platform. How many people know when to do what? When they run two miles to the store and it needs to be run hot, do they run it or just go to the store? From what I’ve seen, they just go to the store.

You do know we are talking about a pickup to pull 10-15k, right? Why would someone put a 800-1500ci engine in a pickup to pull 10-15K?

Yes, you’ll only find a diesel in heavy equipment (definition of heavy equipment can always be argued). We aren’t talking about that.

This is a lot like a tractor with a loader versus a wheel loader (not skid steer). At the top of the tractor range, there is some overlap with the bottom of the wheel loader, but overall, they do and excel in different jobs.

We have already established your application is serviced better by a diesel engine. What I can’t understand is how you got so emotionally invested that a diesel is the only good option, that you’ve managed to completely ignore the successes the current gas engines bring to the table.

Its not emotional....It’s silly claims that need to be addressed.
When someone claims BS like gas engines have the same durability as Diesel engines is when I start noticing.
And although the topic is about pickups, those wild generalizations like that will be pointed out.
Also noteworthy is I’m not the only one pointing out the wild claims of gas being as durable.

 

[Hay Dude]

As someone who dyno tests the exact engines we are discussing on a daily basis, I find your position interesting and somewhat misinformed.

Commercial and heavy vehicles are primarily all diesel for the torque, and fuel economy. But there is no inherent reason why an internal combustion engine fueled with diesel will be more reliable long-term than one fueled with gasoline. The internal component structure is basically the exact same, as you probably know. I still see plenty of old big block gas dump trucks for sale around here... plenty reliable if you can tolerate 4 mpg. So you can easily design and produce a gasoline engine that will be very robust for hundreds of thousands of miles. But if you try to make a lightweight, low cost engine on EITHER fuel type, you're going to have durability problems long term. This is probably why you consider gas engines less reliable, because they were often intentionally underbuilt with the knowledge that they would NOT be chosen by people needing to work so hard on a daily basis.

Your thinking seems based on the last several decades of vehicle patterns in our country, which is totally logical. But consider the current, present reality. Gasoline engines today are better than they have ever been. Aside from some OEMs deciding to stick undersized and over worked turbocharged gas engines into heavy vehicles, we have new big displacement gas V8s that are designed and built for a lifetime of hard work, and dyno tested to prove this durability. And significantly better on efficiency (fuel consumption) than in the past, especially when coupled with our new transmissions.

Conversely on the diesel side, we now have emissions regulations that are putting the diesels competency into a shrinking box of reliability. Fuel pumps and injectors are operating at 40,000 PSI to inject fuel into the cylinder. And these poor components have to deal with ultra low sulfur fuel with greatly reduced lubricity. EGR systems pumping soot right back into your intake manifold. And the engine has breathe exhaust through a complex multistage emissions control system prone to failure. And even needing an extra fluid/fuel just to help control the output (DEF). The repair costs on the fuel injection and exhaust treatment system are ridiculous, as you likely know.

Meanwhile on a new large displacement gas engine.... things are still about as simple as they have ever been. Ford went back to pushrods, which was smart. Direct injection has allowed precise combustion control, enabling much better torque delivery at low revs. Sure, a 1000 lbf-ft diesel is still going to pull your trailer better. But how much speed do you need?

Personally, I am just glad we still have so many engine choices! We're probably in a golden era and peak of internal combustion engine development. R&D investment by OEMs is going to start declining, so enjoy your power and freedom now while you can.

Well, I do base my logic on past history. History is the best teacher we have. When we see your new “robust architecture” gas engines make their way into heavy duty vehicles and last as long, then I will admit they have equal durability.
Problem is, they haven’t, so they don’t.
Until they do, you can talk all the gas engine durability you want. Problem is, it hasnt happened yet.

Notice you said you still see plenty of “old” gas dumps around.....old meaning “in the past”.....like no longer made.....like everyone knows they suck and they learned their lesson and went diesel.

And it’s not that I want 1000 ft lb torque diesel to tow the loads I pull fast, but thanks for the wise crack. Nope, I hang in the right lane about 55 on a 4 lane interstate.
The reason I picked diesel over gas is that the gas engine alternative is not rated to tow even close to the same load. Even if it could, it consumes a lot more fuel doing so.
If you look at all of the gas v. diesel trucks, despite having the same transmission, gearing, spring packs and axles, gas engines actually aren’t comparable to the diesel offering in towing capacity. Period.

So until you show me gas engines that can pull equal loads, with equal durability and equal fuel economy, everything you stated above is just ra-ra gas motor talk.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

We have already established your application is serviced better by a diesel engine. What I can’t understand is how you got so emotionally invested that a diesel is the only good option, that you’ve managed to completely ignore the successes the current gas engines bring to the table.

Exactly...

 

[nikerret]

And it’s not that I want 1000 ft lb torque diesel to tow the loads I pull fast, but thanks for the wise crack.

So until you show me gas engines that can pull equal loads, with equal durability and equal fuel economy, everything you stated above is just ra-ra gas motor talk.

The first part I quoted wasn’t me.....


I’m not “ra-ra gas”, nor against diesel. I do see them as both having value, in different applications. The right tool, for the job. In pulling trailers, there is a lot of overlap. Show me where I said gas was the only option or always the best option. If I said it, I sure don’t remember it nor can I find it, in my previous posts.


ETA: It looks like me and the quote buttons didn’t align. No wonder I was so confused why he thought I said it....sorry about that.

 

[Hay Dude]

I agree. I think the Cummins 5.9 has like 30% less moving parts than the competition, if it moves it is subject to wearing out. I test drove a Ford 6.0, 6spd manual one time and almost got killed trying to enter the main street (4 lanes). I stalled the engine like three times before I got it launched.

My Cummins trucks are launched at an idle at every stop, every time, loaded or empty. That's one of the reasons my clutches last so long. Back in the day before diesels, my big block gassers might go 50k miles before clutch time......

Back in the day, if you were serious about hauling heavy you bought a manual. The 3 and 4 speed autos were worthless, used behind a Cummins. With that said, I would really like to have a 4th gen Ram with a six speed auto, the autos have really come a long way. They are almost mandatory behind a gasser or v-8 diesel.

Yep, another big diesel advantage over gas the gas guys don’t understand is “off pedal(clutch) torque”. Soon as the clutch pedal engages, diesels make far more torque than gas.

 

[Hay Dude]

The first part I quoted wasn’t me.....


I’m not “ra-ra gas”, nor against diesel. I do see them as both having value, in different applications. The right tool, for the job. In pulling trailers, there is a lot of overlap. Show me where I said gas was the only option or always the best option. If I said it, I sure don’t remember it nor can I find it, in my previous posts.

It doesn’t matter who quoted it. Most of it is unproven talk.
I see gas as having value, too Deezler.
Where I disagree with you is when you make unsubstantiated claims. You cant say one thing is better than the other based on hope, or claims or recent improvements.
I agree with you gas engines have improved, but diesel engines have been vastly improved, too-even with the emissions dragging them down.

The fact is take 2 trucks, Ford, GM or RAM. Equip them exactly the same. The fact remains that the diesel will pull substantially more weight. Give both their proper maintenance schedules and proper operation, the diesel has a longer life in both hours and miles. Given optimal driving technique, the diesel will get better fuel economy and the gap in fuel economy will widen substantially with each heavy towing.

Those are indisputable facts, proven by statistics complied over many decades.

 

[nikerret]

Yep, another big diesel advantage over gas the gas guys don’t understand is “off pedal(clutch) torque”. Soon as the clutch pedal engages, diesels make far more torque than gas.

Again, you’re talking about a past that isn’t relevant. You can’t get a manual, in any “HD” pickup. The last holdout was RAM, which quit offering them, in 2019.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

I have a 3/4 ton 2500 HD with the 6.0 motor and 4:10 gearing I use it to pull a 30' gooseneck flatbed trailer to haul round rolls of hay from the field to the barn and or my gooseneck stock trailer to haul cattle to the market and it does all I need it to do, with that being said I don't haul for a living, if I did I would have bought a diesel, but for my use I bought what I wanted which was a gas motor, not because I couldn't afford a diesel but because of all the problems that A LOT of diesel trucks seem to have today. I have several friends who have newer diesels and it seems to be a never ending thing with the emission systems on these trucks and several thousand dollars here to delete this and a few more thousand over hear to stud the heads and another few thousand for new injectors, no thanks, they can pull hell off the hinges when they work right but it's at a huge cost in my opinion, a lot of people just like me aren't going to pay $70k for a new diesel and then another 5 or 6k to make it more reliable and we are the gas engine folks and I hope this new gas motor set up continues to impress, because when I get ready for a new 3/4 ton it will be what I am looking for unless the government loosens the regulations on diesel engines, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Hay Dude]

Again, you’re talking about a past that isn’t relevant. You can’t get a manual, in any “HD” pickup. The last holdout was RAM, which quit offering them, in 2019.

Still applies as soon as torque converter is locked and applies in larger manual transmission trucks.

Lol,,,would you rather have, a gas TRUCK with LESS low rpm torque? Is that another gas “advantage“? lol
Everyone knows diesel makes more low end torque. That’s an advantage for manual or automatic.

So diesel has more torque, more longevity, more fuel economy and more low end torque.
Gas costs less up front, but given enough miles and resale, diesel will make it all up and them some.

 

[nikerret]

It doesn’t matter who quoted it. Most of it is unproven talk.
I see gas as having value, too Deezler.
Where I disagree with you is when you make unsubstantiated claims. You cant say one thing is better than the other based on hope, or claims or recent improvements.
I agree with you gas engines have improved, but diesel engines have been vastly improved, too-even with the emissions dragging them down.

The fact is take 2 trucks, Ford, GM or RAM. Equip them exactly the same. The fact remains that the diesel will pull substantially more weight. Give both their proper maintenance schedules and proper operation, the diesel has a longer life in both hours and miles. Given optimal driving technique, the diesel will get better fuel economy and the gap in fuel economy will widen substantially with each heavy towing.

Those are indisputable facts, proven by statistics complied over many decades.

Well, I confused sone things by quoting the wrong post....sorry about that.

Diesel specs have improved, but their reputation for reliability has definitely taken a hit.

Yes, the diesel will pull more. The issues come up in that diesels require the “proper operation” and “optimal driving technique”, your words, to beat out the gas.

In the right situations, the diesel is definitely better. Same can be said, for gas, in other situations.

The diesel will get better MPG, but the fuel itself costs more as does the scheduled maintenance.

 

[Hay Dude]

I have a 3/4 ton 2500 HD with the 6.0 motor and 4:10 gearing I use it to pull a 30' gooseneck flatbed trailer to haul round rolls of hay from the field to the barn and or my gooseneck stock trailer to haul cattle to the market and it does all I need it to do, with that being said I don't haul for a living, if I did I would have bought a diesel, but for my use I bought what I wanted which was a gas motor, not because I couldn't afford a diesel but because of all the problems that A LOT of diesel trucks seem to have today. I have several friends who have newer diesels and it seems to be a never ending thing with the emission systems on these trucks and several thousand dollars here to delete this and a few more thousand over hear to stud the heads and another few thousand for new injectors, no thanks, they can pull hell off the hinges when they work right but it's at a huge cost in my opinion, a lot of people just like me aren't going to pay $70k for a new diesel and then another 5 or 6k to make it more reliable and we are the gas engine folks and I hope this new gas motor set up continues to impress, because when I get ready for a new 3/4 ton it will be what I am looking for unless the government loosens the regulations on diesel engines, but I won't hold my breath.

They have improved those systems.
It was a problem for a while, but the big 3 know they can’t lose diesel sales. That has forced them to improve the emissions systems.

 

[nikerret]

Well, the OP hasn’t logged on, since Thursday. Since my responses were to his planned usage (not what semi’s need), it doesn’t seem this thread is worth much more time.

 

[Hay Dude]

Well, I confused sone things by quoting the wrong post....sorry about that.

Diesel specs have improved, but their reputation for reliability has definitely taken a hit.

Yes, the diesel will pull more. The issues come up in that diesels require the “proper operation” and “optimal driving technique”, your words, to beat out the gas.

In the right situations, the diesel is definitely better. Same can be said, for gas, in other situations.

The diesel will get better MPG, but the fuel itself costs more as does the scheduled maintenance.

No problem Nicorette

Yeah, lol, proper operation is required to make anything last a long time. If you have an idiot operating a machine improperly, even a gas engine can be ruined....
The fuel economy on a diesel truck loaded heavily is nearly double that of a gas engine. Big block gas is 5-6 towing at its max. Diesel is 10-12 towing at its max.
BIG difference none of the gas guys talk about is, the diesel will be towing a heavier load.

Im sure you understand economics, right? Efficiency? Sure you do. If you are towing 15 tons behind a 5500 Cummins versus 9 tons behind a 5500 gas, how many less trips do you make?

Did you ever account for that savings in diesel versus gas? Or are you still quoting internet spec sheets?

 

[Hay Dude]

Well, the OP hasn’t logged on, since Thursday. Since my responses were to his planned usage (not what semi’s need), it doesn’t seem this thread is worth much more time.

No worries. These threads wander around. Someone insinuated gas engines had same longevity as Diesel engines. I responded.

 

[nikerret]

No problem Nicorette

Yeah, lol, proper operation is required to make anything last a long time. If you have an idiot operating a machine improperly, even a gas engine can be ruined....
The fuel economy on a diesel truck loaded heavily is nearly double that of a gas engine. Big block gas is 5-6 towing at its max. Diesel is 10-12 towing at its max.
BIG difference none of the gas guys talk about is, the diesel will be towing a heavier load.

Im sure you understand economics, right? Efficiency? Sure you do. If you are towing 15 tons behind a 5500 Cummins versus 9 tons behind a 5500 gas, how many less trips do you make?

Did you ever account for that savings in diesel versus gas? Or are you still quoting internet spec sheets?

We are agreeing on a few things. My F-350 gas gets around 5-6 MPG fully loaded, in hills and with wind (where I live there are always hills and wind). Unloaded, my heavy truck gets between 10-15, generally.

We aren’t comparing heavier loads. The OP asked about towing 10-15k, not getting the most truck so he can max it out. As I said, if you’re towing more than 20k, you should consider a diesel. I wouldn’t recommend anyone buy a gas pickup to pull 30k.

I don’t understand your trips example. The trips I have to take is more determined by the item and available trailer than what truck you use. If you’re getting paid by the ton, you should buy the heaviest duty diesel you can find. Again, not what the OP was asking about.

If his traiier and load will never be more than 15k, it doesn’t matter if he can tow 22k.

When I was truck shopping, I accounted for everything I could find. Actually, few little of it came from spec sheets. I’ve been fortunate to be able to get behind the wheel of a wide variety of vehicles and have spent a lot of time in the County Maintenance shop, seeing what holds up and what hasn’t.