Used Value vs Age

[Hay Dude]

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the electronics have advanced tractor efficiency and refinement a lot in the last several years due to the adoption of the technology that it has brought?

I don’t want to speak for MHarryE, but I think that’s what he is saying and he is correct. New engines will be rated for say 150HP and have a short duration where they can boost to 175 during a struggle (or shhhhhtruggle) and then come back down to 150 to save fuel and wear.
Im still running tractors made between 2003 and 2011. Pre 4s. I just prefer them, but I know the clock is going tick tock on them, too. One is a CVT, which is a dream to operate.
I am actually looking to unload one of my 125HP Kubota's for a AGCO CVT or maybe another large frame Magnum to pull a second large square baler. Decisions decisions.….
I can buy a 200-300HP Case IH Magnum, a McCormick, or a New Holland for less than a Kubota with 100-125HP. Both are 4wd and both are powershift. One has a Kubota diesel and one has a Cummins, Perkins or New Holland diesel. I can get the Case-IH or McCormick fixed for cheaper. We have a couple local used dealers who specialize in keeping them going.
There’s a lot to decide and the government regulations piece of the decision is now a big factor. What’s to keep them from ruling that all Pre-4 tractors must be shut down? Then what?
Its all kind of stressful, but it seems like there are 2 factions in farming
1. Lease new (high payments/low upkeep)
2. Buy old (low payments/high upkeep)

Ive heard the arguments for both sides and both are valid. For now, I can’t see me inking a deal on a $250,000 tractor. Even being incorporated, it ties me to too much debt and I don’t have the ability to sleep with that. But tossing and turning over broken equipment aint much better.

 

[mo1]

Debatable no doubt, but an interesting quote.
View attachment 716609

That is not only an interesting quote, but interesting for who said it. Ike Skelton was a Democrat Congressman from Missouri who left office 10 years ago. I'll leave it at that, you can draw further conclusions.

 

[Torvy]

California gov Newsome signed an order to ban lawn mowers and leaf blowers with gas engines in California. How long before farm equipment is added to the list?

California moves toward ban on gas lawn mowers and leaf blowers

California will outlaw the sale of new gas-powered lawn mowers, leaf blowers and chain saws as early as 2024 under a new law signed by Gov. Gavin Newsom.

www.latimes.com

I think it would be hilarious if they just made them diesel instead...

 

[MoKelly]

That is not only an interesting quote, but interesting for who said it. Ike Skelton was a Democrat Congressman from Missouri who left office 10 years ago. I'll leave it at that, you can draw further conclusions.

Isaac Newton Skelton IV to be exact.

MoKelly

 

[Hay Dude]

California gov Newsome signed an order to ban lawn mowers and leaf blowers with gas engines in California. How long before farm equipment is added to the list?

California moves toward ban on gas lawn mowers and leaf blowers

California will outlaw the sale of new gas-powered lawn mowers, leaf blowers and chain saws as early as 2024 under a new law signed by Gov. Gavin Newsom.

www.latimes.com

Well, whenever/if that happens, people will starve to death.

 

[Cougsfan]

Its all kind of stressful, but it seems like there are 2 factions in farming
1. Lease new (high payments/low upkeep)
2. Buy old (low payments/high upkeep)

You have that choice these days, but it would be my guess that won't be a choice in 20 years from now, because those "new" leased tractors of today will be the "old" ones in the future. And the upkeep costs on the tractors made today will be unaffordable in 20 years, so you will be forced to buy or lease new. Tractors are quietly going the way of home appliances in that they being designed to become obsolete in a relatively short time span, unlike tractors of the past. Companies are realizing they need a constant renewing of tractors to maintain their profitability.

If you think being a farmer is stressful now, wait 20 years. The only people who can afford to farm will be large corporations.

MHarryE, with all due respect, still seems to think that Tier 4 contributes to increased tractor sales. I would continue to argue that tractor sales are going up for other reasons, in spite of being saddled with the troublesome Tier 4 hardware. I would also continue to argue all these other new technological features do definitely have their advantages when the tractor is new but will be a severe disadvantage as the tractor ages, and service and repair becomes much more difficult. That isn't hating technology, that is just a fact of life.

 

[Cougsfan]

I don't live in the big city, so, at least out here, folks are raised to work hard and Not take handouts from the government unless it's absolutely necessary (and then it for the shortest time possible). Hired hands around here ARE available and well trained/taught from a young age how to work equipment - many folks round here actually have the hired hands living on their property as part of their wages.

And using the argument against the extreme environmentalist ...

I hadn't realized that solar panel manufacturers & wind powerplants were "extreme environmentalists". Do you have answers for those "for the better good" questions? Most of the "Alternative Energy" folks I've heard from hate Nuke energy too! Pretty clean energy compared to Solar manufacturering - Or don't we worry about the manufacturering processes "for the better good"?

Chris, I think we agree on more than you think. I wasn't insinuating that there aren't people that will still work hard. But in most areas I have seen, there are job postings all over the place, and the people who will work hard are already working. If you can still find people willing to work in Arkansas to fill new jobs, good for you, but I will assure you it is not that way in many areas of our country, and not just in the big cities.

And I too think nuclear power is the way to go, People look at nuclear power through they eyes of 50 year old technology. We have much better ways of doing it today if we just would get over the prejudice against it. (MHarryE, this is a place where technology fits well!) And I am certainly not a fan of windmills either. Solar panels have their place, but aren't a total answer. I am of the opinion we need to ween ourselves off fossil fuels but we need to do it intelligently. I am also certain we will certainly make numerous mistakes along the way.

The extreme environmentalist I was referring to were your mention of tree huggers and spotted owl defenders.

I also think those robotic tractors will be commonplace in 50 years, like it or not. But I think a person would be a fool to invest in one for practical use today.

 

[Menagerie-Manor]

Chris, I think we agree on more than you think. I wasn't insinuating that there aren't people that will still work hard. But in most areas I have seen, there are job postings all over the place, and the people who will work hard are already working. If you can still find people willing to work in Arkansas to fill new jobs, good for you, but I will assure you it is not that way in many areas of our country, and not just in the big cities.

And I too think nuclear power is the way to go, People look at nuclear power through they eyes of 50 year old technology. We have much better ways of doing it today if we just would get over the prejudice against it. (MHarryE, this is a place where technology fits well!) And I am certainly not a fan of windmills either. Solar panels have their place, but aren't a total answer. I am of the opinion we need to ween ourselves off fossil fuels but we need to do it intelligently. I am also certain we will certainly make numerous mistakes along the way.

The extreme environmentalist I was referring to were your mention of tree huggers and spotted owl defenders.

I also think those robotic tractors will be commonplace in 50 years, like it or not. But I think a person would be a fool to invest in one for practical use today.

The newer downscaled compact Nuke plants are hopefully going to break into the market at some point, they make a lot of sense considering they would be one of the few 24/7 reliable sources.

 

[Hay Dude]

You have that choice these days, but it would be my guess that won't be a choice in 20 years from now, because those "new" leased tractors of today will be the "old" ones in the future. And the upkeep costs on the tractors made today will be unaffordable in 20 years, so you will be forced to buy or lease new. Tractors are quietly going the way of home appliances in that they being designed to become obsolete in a relatively short time span, unlike tractors of the past. Companies are realizing they need a constant renewing of tractors to maintain their profitability.

If you think being a farmer is stressful now, wait 20 years. The only people who can afford to farm will be large corporations.

MHarryE, with all due respect, still seems to think that Tier 4 contributes to increased tractor sales. I would continue to argue that tractor sales are going up for other reasons, in spite of being saddled with the troublesome Tier 4 hardware. I would also continue to argue all these other new technological features do definitely have their advantages when the tractor is new but will be a severe disadvantage as the tractor ages, and service and repair becomes much more difficult. That isn't hating technology, that is just a fact of life.

Thanks for that uplifting, positive information. Lol
I totally disagree. People are getting away from large “corporation foods”. They want more organically grown foods from smaller farmers. I am not really small for my area and I am growing each year. With my son coming along, I have more help.
For me, profits are rising and as long as I keep my faith in God, I think this country will turn around and become a place where a man or woman can still call America “The Land of Opportunity”.

 

[IndyJay]

...People are getting away from large “corporation foods”. They want more organically grown foods from smaller farmers. I am not really small for my area and I am growing each year...

Hay Dude, I agree that people WANT more organically grown food from smaller farmers but the reality is that the majority of our food comes from huge farm operations owned by elite billionaires who do it primarily to take advantage of tax laws that increasingly favor that group. Recent changes in Inheritance taxes highlight this trend. I understand that we are not allowed to get "political" on this forum so I will leave it there.

 

[ning]

People look at nuclear power through they eyes of 5̶0̶70 year old technology

FTFY

 

[Cougsfan]

Thanks for that uplifting, positive information. Lol
I totally disagree. People are getting away from large “corporation foods”. They want more organically grown foods from smaller farmers. I am not really small for my area and I am growing each year. With my son coming along, I have more help.
For me, profits are rising and as long as I keep my faith in God, I think this country will turn around and become a place where a man or woman can still call America “The Land of Opportunity”.

As much as I would love to agree with your assessment of things, it is unfortunately incorrect. A growing number of people people indeed are wanting to go organic (whatever than means) and go back to buying all their food at a farmer's market, bypassing corporate farms. But they are still a very small fraction of the people. The vast majority of people have no idea nor do they particularly care where their food comes from, who grows it, or how it is grown.

The US and Canada have the largest farms in the world, and they just keep getting larger and larger. At the same time the number of private farm owners are going down. Many of the private farm owners are getting so large so that they are morphing themselves into corporate farms. Many of the remaining farm property owners are turning into landlords and just lease their property to large farmers.

I don't particularly like the direction farming is going. I think it ties directly into the growing gap between the haves and the have nots. The "haves" have the lobbying power to set the rules that favor themselves. I think it will eventually change, but unfortunately not until the "haves", not purposefully but unwittingly, created an overwhelming number of "have nots".

 

[mo1]

As much as I would love to agree with your assessment of things, it is unfortunately incorrect. A growing number of people people indeed are wanting to go organic (whatever than means) and go back to buying all their food at a farmer's market, bypassing corporate farms. But they are still a very small fraction of the people. The vast majority of people have no idea nor do they particularly care where their food comes from, who grows it, or how it is grown.

The US and Canada have the largest farms in the world, and they just keep getting larger and larger. At the same time the number of private farm owners are going down. Many of the private farm owners are getting so large so that they are morphing themselves into corporate farms. Many of the remaining farm property owners are turning into landlords and just lease their property to large farmers.

I agree with this. While the interest in locally grown/organic stuff is growing, it is growing from a very tiny fraction of the market to a slightly less tiny but still very tiny fraction of the market. The only two things most people care about with their food is convenience and price. A very distant third and fourth would be variety/selection and quality although most give those up for more convenience and lower prices. Very few people care about anything else. Both of those first two are putting heavy pressure to continue the consolidation and conglomeration of agriculture and the food supply which is exactly why we are seeing this happen.

The fact that a tiny number of people care about something other than price and convenience will keep a little bit of agriculture non-consolidated, but it will never move beyond a tiny niche unless there is some major external factor that massively and consistently disrupts the current system for many years. This has been proven in the last two years when there have been major supply disruptions of specific things for periods of time. There was some talk about people doing more things themselves and perhaps a decentralization of agriculture and the supply chains to better deal with major disruptions, but nothing actually came of it as the significant disruptions only lasted a handful of months. You just can't compete with the giant conglomerates in a market with such tiny margins.

 

[Hay Dude]

You all can hypothesize all you want. I have a good business model and all the buyers I could ever want.
'sides, if it all goes to crap in 30 years, Ill be taking a dirt nap by then anyway.

 

[Hay Dude]

I agree with this. While the interest in locally grown/organic stuff is growing, it is growing from a very tiny fraction of the market to a slightly less tiny but still very tiny fraction of the market. The only two things most people care about with their food is convenience and price. A very distant third and fourth would be variety/selection and quality although most give those up for more convenience and lower prices. Very few people care about anything else. Both of those first two are putting heavy pressure to continue the consolidation and conglomeration of agriculture and the food supply which is exactly why we are seeing this happen.

The fact that a tiny number of people care about something other than price and convenience will keep a little bit of agriculture non-consolidated, but it will never move beyond a tiny niche unless there is some major external factor that massively and consistently disrupts the current system for many years. This has been proven in the last two years when there have been major supply disruptions of specific things for periods of time. There was some talk about people doing more things themselves and perhaps a decentralization of agriculture and the supply chains to better deal with major disruptions, but nothing actually came of it as the significant disruptions only lasted a handful of months. You just can't compete with the giant conglomerates in a market with such tiny margins.

Watch me

 

[Hay Dude]

Chris, I think we agree on more than you think. I wasn't insinuating that there aren't people that will still work hard. But in most areas I have seen, there are job postings all over the place, and the people who will work hard are already working. If you can still find people willing to work in Arkansas to fill new jobs, good for you, but I will assure you it is not that way in many areas of our country, and not just in the big cities.

And I too think nuclear power is the way to go, People look at nuclear power through they eyes of 50 year old technology. We have much better ways of doing it today if we just would get over the prejudice against it. (MHarryE, this is a place where technology fits well!) And I am certainly not a fan of windmills either. Solar panels have their place, but aren't a total answer. I am of the opinion we need to ween ourselves off fossil fuels but we need to do it intelligently. I am also certain we will certainly make numerous mistakes along the way.

The extreme environmentalist I was referring to were your mention of tree huggers and spotted owl defenders.

I also think those robotic tractors will be commonplace in 50 years, like it or not. But I think a person would be a fool to invest in one for practical use today.

1. We have the government paying people to stay home. That is direct competition to employers who need lower wage hard work employees. Low wages and hard work are more difficult than low wages easy work, hence the appearance of less available workers.
2. We have theft up to $500-$1000 now legal in some big cities. This means someone digging ditches for $15/hour can now walk into a department store, walk into the aisles and fill up a hefty trash bag with merchandise, then go sell it. Thats a lot easier money than ditch digging.
3. We have a massive free flow of low paid immigrant labor flooding our country through our recently opened borders. This tempts many employers to hire them and pay them under the table to dig ditches for $10-$15/hour instead of creating a US citizen employment spot and paying $15/hour for a proper hard working employee with workmans comp and other expenses like payroll
4. Fuel now costs more than it has in the last SEVEN YEARS. This inhibits the ability of the $15/hour hard working employee to drive more than a few miles each way to work compared to when fuel prices were lower.
5. Taxes are now going higher. Especially on corporatations. This makes employers less likely to hire workers, even the ones that work hard.
6. The cost of everything has gone up. This is also known as inflation. This demoralizes even hard workers, knowing that the few dollars they earn will not go very far. This also works at the employer level since rising fuel and hard/soft goods rising in cost causes employers to cut back on all but the most essential employees.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Did I just tune into Fox News by mistake? Or is this crap a commercial while I wait for the regular tractor show to return?

 

[IndyJay]

Did I just tune into Fox News by mistake? Or is this crap a commercial while I wait for the regular tractor show to return?

Wow, really? Anything stated that isn't true?

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Wow, really?

Yup...

 

[MoKelly]

If it can’t be refuted, call it names.

Yep.

MoKelly