Building my Fence

[RancherGuy]

View attachment 729687

I'm not sure why you have the barbed wire and the field wire so high. I place both on the ground. If the wire is quality and the soil doesn't have something to destroy the zinc, the galvanizing should last decades. And if it doesn't last, it is simple to lay a new barbed wire along the ground.

My technique is to put my end posts and corners in, then run the bottom barbed wire on the ground. Tighten to final tension. Now I have the straight line for all of the intermediate posts. The field fence is also set on the ground, thus rises 48 inches up from that. Top wire is no more than 2 inches above the field fence - to keep noses from pushing between to push the field fence down.

The benefit to me is that with the wire into the grass, the grass itself starts to hold the wire from any type of movement, and even small critters do not find a gap to use.

 

[MAX-24-Dean]

I'm not sure why you have the barbed wire and the field wire so high. I place both on the ground. If the wire is quality and the soil doesn't have something to destroy the zinc, the galvanizing should last decades. And if it doesn't last, it is simple to lay a new barbed wire along the ground.

My technique is to put my end posts and corners in, then run the bottom barbed wire on the ground. Tighten to final tension. Now I have the straight line for all of the intermediate posts. The field fence is also set on the ground, thus rises 48 inches up from that. Top wire is no more than 2 inches above the field fence - to keep noses from pushing between to push the field fence down.

The benefit to me is that with the wire into the grass, the grass itself starts to hold the wire from any type of movement, and even small critters do not find a gap to use.

I don't know how true this is, but I was constantly told to use class 3 galvanized wire if it was in contact with the ground as it has more than twice the coating thickness as class 1 wire.

 

[RancherGuy]

I don't know how true this is, but I was constantly told to use class 3 galvanized wire if it was in contact with the ground as it has more than twice the coating thickness as class 1 wire.

I was not aware that there were different classes, but certainly the more the merrier.

 

[RancherGuy]

Thought I would do a show-and-tell on my neighbor's "professionally built" fence. After approximately 7 years, here are 3 example corners that I photographed today:

Simple observation should be sufficient to say that something is wrong with the design. The builder installed 3 posts: Two stand about 4 feet above ground level (6 feet below ground level), one is about 1 foot high. Distance between each is approximately 6 feet, all connections are welded.

My thoughts are as follows:

1) The corner post has little vertical resistance. It's just a pipe stuck in the ground.
2) The middle post has little vertical resistance.
3) The "short" post is installed vertically, thus resistance to pushing from the angled pipe is poor.
4) There is no way to correct the situation, short of removing and rebuilding the corners.

As a result of the movement, all of the fence wires down the line are loose and all of the intermediate posts show that they have been pulled with the wire, meaning they too are leaning.

In contrast, my design, included in an earlier post, with the similar galvanized pipe has not a single corner or end that has lifted or leaned in 5 years.

 

[EddieWalker]

Here is my design:

View attachment 729665

Thank you for the pictures of your neighbors fence. I've seen similar results too.

In your drawing, I believe that you have taken the traditional design and improved upon it. Is the diagonal bracing wire or is it something solid?

With your design, which was originally created 200 years ago, the engineering was based on only having wood and wire to work with. The wire pulls the second post towards the corner post and locks it together with the cross post. By going deeper and adding the anchors to your posts, you've also increased the structural strength of it.

A triangle is the strongest shape in construction. The triangle is upside down in your design, and relies on 6 points of contact to create a solid structure. The only function of the second post is to support the cross beam. It offers no strength to the corner post.

In my opinion, I've simplified the design by using a much stronger diagonal bracing. The metal pipe set in concrete. I have 3 points of contact, which means if just one fails, I'll have total failure. But it also means that there are less places for failure when compared to a H designed corner.

In my soil, I believe that your design will work flawlessly if the diagonal wire doesn't stretch over time. I also believe that in my soil, my design will work, but cost less money and time to create.

 

[RancherGuy]

Is the diagonal bracing wire or is it something solid?

Diagonal is wire. I use twisted 12 gauge double wire (like barbed wire) but with no barbs. Any strong wire will do. I use 2 loops before twisting it tight, therefore there are a total of 8 wires.

The triangle is upside down in your design, and relies on 6 points of contact to create a solid structure. The only function of the second post is to support the cross beam. It offers no strength to the corner post.

There are actually two triangles. The second post (inner) must support the horizontal piece.

In my soil, I believe that your design will work flawlessly if the diagonal wire doesn't stretch over time. I also believe that in my soil, my design will work, but cost less money and time to create.

If the diagonal wire should stretch, which is unlikely, all that is necessary is to add an extra turn or two on the crosswire.

I can't advise you on what is best for your situation. I'm pointing out some design flaws in other situations so they can be avoided. Coming up, I'll post one more engineering consideration, then I'm done.

 

[Blue Mule]

Why don't you like H-bracing for corners? We do it like that up here in Kentucky with horses, cattle, goats, and the worst weather conditions you can imagine from blazing summer sun to deep snow to torrential rain...and they last for 20-30 years on average.

 

[RancherGuy]

Eddie,

This is my image of what you are using:

Symbolically, the following is a summary of the active forces. The relationship between your post and pipe might be considered to be a fixed structure, like and L bracket:

The red dot represents a fulcrum point of rotation. C is the wire tension, D is the resulting lift on the post (A). If the length of segment B is half the length of segment A, then a 200 pound wire tension (C) would result in a lift (D) of 400 pounds.

If segment B length is equal to segment A, then the lift (D) is equal to (C):

The beauty of an H design is that the length of segment B represents the distance between posts. If the distance is 8 feet and the post height above ground is 4 feet, then the lift D drops to half of wire tension C. The diagonal wire is only to assure that the shape of the H (or square if constructed that way) remains unchanged.

edit:
The math, expressed as an equation:
(A x C) = (B x D)
or if solving for D, this changes to:
D = (A x C) / B

 

[EddieWalker]

Eddie,

This is my image of what you are using:
View attachment 729784

Symbolically, the following is a summary of the active forces. The relationship between your post and pipe might be considered to be a fixed structure, like and L bracket:

View attachment 729785

The red dot represents a fulcrum point of rotation. C is the wire tension, D is the resulting lift on the post (A). If the length of segment B is half the length of segment A, then a 200 pound wire tension (C) would result in a lift (D) of 400 pounds.

If segment B length is equal to segment A, then the lift (D) is equal to (C):

View attachment 729786

The beauty of an H design is that the length of segment B represents the distance between posts. If the distance is 8 feet and the post height above ground is 4 feet, then the lift D drops to half of wire tension C. The diagonal wire is only to assure that the shape of the H (or square if constructed that way) remains unchanged.

edit:
The math, expressed as an equation:
(A x C) = (B x D)
or if solving for D, this changes to:
D = (A x C) / B

I understand your point, but I disagree on the fulcrum comparison.

The diagonal pipe eliminates the desire for the post to want to come out of the ground the same as any other bracing system, but it does it in one piece instead of 3 additional pieces.

This eliminates the ongoing maintenance required in keeping the wire tensioned.

Going back to your picture of the professionally installed corner, they failed to anchor the posts, or they where not deep enough for their soil. The diagonal bracing was too far off of the ground, and all of it was able to flex. If they had simplified it, it would have been stronger.

 

[EddieWalker]

Why don't you like H-bracing for corners? We do it like that up here in Kentucky with horses, cattle, goats, and the worst weather conditions you can imagine from blazing summer sun to deep snow to torrential rain...and they last for 20-30 years on average.

View attachment 729783

I have never been to Kentucky, so I can't comment on how well fencing holds up there. Here in East Texas, where we have red clay soil, I have noticed that every single corner that I've seen done this way has become loose over the years. The last one I looked at was between 5 to ten years old, and the wire was loose and the cross beam was bowed. The posts where leaning over slightly, but not significantly. They where working on fixing it by pulling it back with a tractor, and filling around the posts with concrete. Then they said that they will tighten the wire the next day or two. I don't know if they did or didn't, it was at a house I was looking at for a client, and I haven't been back. It was built with new PT round posts.

I will admit that I've also noticed a lot of H corners built with railroad ties, and they where all in very bad shape. In my opinion, railroad ties should never be used for fencing. They rot very quickly when they are in the ground, and nothing can save them.

 

[ovrszd]

Robbed this statement from RancherGuy's post:

The diagonal wire is only to assure that the shape of the H (or square if constructed that way) remains unchanged.

While it's a true statement it tends to indicate the diagonal wire has minimal effect. On the contrary. With a H design the diagonal bracing is the most important piece. Actually it's the only effective thing about H design. Going back to Eddie's comment about the strongest thing is a triangle. Without it you have minimal bracing at the corner.

I don't think RancherGuy intended to indicate minimal effect. Just how the words came out.

As to the pics of the "professional corners". They shoved slick pipe in the ground with the FEL bucket and tied a fence to it. Never had a chance. If set in concrete the outcome would have been much better.

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm home with Covid for the second time, so I apologize for being so argumentative. I really appreciate everyone that takes the time to comment and offer suggestions and advice. I've never been the smartest person, so I rely on others for what they know and what they are willing to share.

My wife just told me that I need to find something to do and get off the computer. LOL At least this time is nothing close to what it was like when we had it a year ago.

 

[RancherGuy]

I understand your point, but I disagree on the fulcrum comparison.

You seem to be very observant. I'm trying to present some content that you may not have considered. If you understand the forces involved, you understand that the crew filling around posts with concrete will help for a very short period of time - depends on how much they tighten the fence wires because the concrete does not weigh enough to have an impact. If you have observed loose H wires and bowed cross beams, then I'd assume the builder was only trying to imitate someone else and did not understand the design. For example I have seen the horizontal for H placed 2 feet above the ground (like a true H character), whereas the best location is near the top. When placed in the center, the compression on the horizontal is doubled and the verticals are exposed to bending forces - which could allow the diagonal wire to loosen as the post(s) warp.

As for the fulcrum issue, try this. Make up two 2x4s that simulate your post and diagonal. Don't have to be full size, but should be in the same ratio you are using. Bolt/nail them together. Dig two holes and put them in the ground. Pack the ground somewhat loosely because you do not want either to actually break. Pull/push horizontally on the "post". Note that the diagonal will not move, but the post will lift. This is the fulcrum concept.

Stay safe and best wishes on your project.

 

[ovrszd]

I'm home with Covid for the second time, so I apologize for being so argumentative. I really appreciate everyone that takes the time to comment and offer suggestions and advice. I've never been the smartest person, so I rely on others for what they know and what they are willing to share.

My wife just told me that I need to find something to do and get off the computer. LOL At least this time is nothing close to what it was like when we had it a year ago.

You aren't being argumentative at all. This is a great discussion with a LOT of information. Anybody that takes the time to sort thru this will learn something.

Good luck with the Covid Eddie!!!

 

[RancherGuy]

Fulcrum Concept

I'm not giving up yet! I have another example of the situation. This represents the diagonal brace and post design:

You are correct that triangles are strong. In the above, each of the 3 segments cannot change length: a-b is the ground, b-c is the post, a-c is the diagonal brace.

Imagine that this is on wood. Nail a brad at locations (a) and (b). Each brad represents burial of the post/pole. If you apply horizontal tension such as a wire on point (c), what will happen? The brads will not shear. If the tension is enough, the brad at location (b) will pull out. Point (a) represents the fulcrum. This model represents the lifting force on an end or corner post.

The only reason a wooden post stays in place is by post-soil friction. If the friction is overcome, even gradually due to weather and moisture changes, the post lifts.

As stated earlier, if the distance between (a) and (b) is increased, the leverage to lift the post is reduced. This is why the "H" design works - the distance of a-b can be increased to reduce the lifting force so the post's friction is not compromised. Perhaps you have even seen double-H implementations for ground that is low friction (wet?), or they want to apply a lot of wire tension.

 

[ovrszd]

I'm not giving up yet!!!

The second post and the horizontal brace in the H design do nothing without the angle brace.

H design is used most in my area. Knowing the angle brace is key to success.

I've not saw it done like Eddie is doing it. I have no experience to base it's success on.

But then,,,, here in the great State of Missouri,,, we would cut the verticals on the woven wire and wrap all the way around the post tying each horizontal wire back onto itself. Same with barbed wire. The staples only keep the wire from sliding up/down the post.

 

[grsthegreat]

My fence corners have always been 3 - 6x6 posts, 8 feet long set about 6 feet apart to make up the angle. I notch these About 6” from the top, and insert brace. Then an X made out of barbless wire. Then i twist the X as tight as possible.

i learned this method many moons ago. My fences at my house are over 24 years old, and still standing good.

 

[dodge man]

Eddie I’ve seen people in my area do the corners similar to your but the diagonal brace ties into a post down low instead of being buried in concrete.

 

[RUSTBUCKET BRONCO]

Not going to get into what type of bracing is best. But I like the five strand high tensile electric fence. My goats have never got out after I put them in the training area
for a week they all get used to the fence and never challenge it. But this fence is just to keep livestock in. It doesn't do anything for coyotes and for sure wouldn't
stop a wild hog. I don't like barb wire. My neighbors horse got caught up in the barb wire and just tore its leg wide open, the vet bill was huge he said.

 

[Smokeydog]

For the 15 acre goat pasture ran woven wire with non high tensile barb wire on top. Steep rough ground surrounding some kudzu. Dehorned all my goats. They could reach thru and kept the fence rows clean. A Great Pyrenees protected against coyotes and domestic dogs. Also put horses in there too and with barn run in stalls for goat only. Goats improved the pasture and cleared the woods. With some help eliminated the kudzu, multiflora rose, privet, honeysuckle and autumn olive.