Solar Interest and Selling Power Back

[MossRoad]

Applies to us as well. ROI is way too long for this old man. At least in our situation, the utility gives us a large break in electric cost for our HWH and if we had a heat pump (we don't), that too. We have 2 separate smart meters, one for the house and one for the HWH. Bottom line with any of it is, it's going to cost you more and more for electricity as well as NG (and propane), nothing you can do about it except turn the t'stat down in the winter or up in the summer or go to alternative fuels like we did for heat. I heat my shop as well as the house with bio mass. The house still requires the heat plant on very cold days but the biomass stove handles it quite well most other times and the one in the shop is always able to maintain the temperature in there.. I have an overhead, high efficiency propane heater but I rarely use it.

I'm in kind of a unique situation as my biomass fuel (seed corn) I get for free so my fuel costs are negligible. I do mix in processed wood pellets with the seed corn at a ratio of 1 of pellets to 3 of corn and there is the issues of loading the units, cleaning them weekly and dumping the ashes but it's still way cheaper than relying on the utility (electric or in our case propane) for heat. Propane is steadily climbing presently. and so is electricity and I think everyone knows why.

Because I'm inherently cheap, I've been heating with biomass for at least 30 years now.

Even considered putting in a stoker coal stove in the house but rice coal around here is hard to obtain where as corn and processed wood pellets aren't and processed wood pellets are supposedly carbon neutral whatever that means.

Problem 10-15 years ago I was looking at BTUs, and how they are wasted when converting something from one for to another VS just using it to its best BTU potential in its original form.

I found a study that said as a nation, we’d be better off running our cars on natural gas (no conversion and very efficient), burning corn to heat our homes(no conversion and very efficient), running trucks and trains on diesel(less conversion than gasoline and more efficient), and large ships on oil(very little conversion).

All of those methods and uses would save huge amounts of BTUs from being lost in conversion.

 

[workinonit]

So my coop rep just called me back. They do have net metering at a 1:1 ratio. Some hoops to jump through first but they allow your installation to be no larger than your highest peak monthly load so in my case 11.6 kW. I will be looking at 12 kW systems. My base charge is $23/mo and they have a $5/Kw/mo charge for solar. So thats $83 out of the gate for a 12 kW system. They get you going and coming.

 

[MossRoad]

So my coop rep just called me back. They do have net metering at a 1:1 ratio. Some hoops to jump through first but they allow your installation to be no larger than your highest peak monthly load so in my case 11.6 kW. I will be looking at 12 kW systems. My base charge is $23/mo and they have a $5/Kw/mo charge for solar. So thats $83 out of the gate for a 12 kW system. They get you going and coming.

Put it all on a spreadsheet and see what your estimated return on investment will be.

7-10 years, if the system is guaranteed to last 20 might not be bad.

 

[Wood_Butcher_Dav]

I was told when is the best time to put in Solar? It's just like planting a tree 5 years ago

Check for any state grants that might also be available.
I got a 9.2KW grid tied system installed in late 2019.
Total cost $27000
Federal tax relief $8000
IL Shines Grant $11000
My costs $8000
I pay around $.13 and get back around $.03. The the monthly savings average for the year in my electric bill is $200.

I had a local electrician do the install and the grant paper work for the turn key install. Very pleased so far.

Dave

 

[Beeenvenue]

Tldr; cost justification and analysis is a mess and getting much messier much faster and the days of net zero are coming to a rapid close so do your best to understand what the payback WILL BE based on regulations in 2025, not today. This is going to be an up and down issue for a long time to come.

Net metering sounds great - and it is - for the first 5-10% of electricity being offset. After that it becomes a negative for the NON-SOLAR users. It is very similar to what is about to happen to electric vehicles.

Your bill (typically) has 2 parts: an energy part based on cost to generate what you use, and a “poles and wires” charge that funds the infrastructure to get it to your house. If you are the only person with solar then net metering makes sense; As you generate more than you consume the meter runs backwards and you move toward a zero bill (or even get a credit if you generate more in a month than you consume, but that is also state and locality dependent and has its own issues). Since your entire bill is based on the “net usage” you pay zero or a reduced cost for energy. You also pay zero or a reduced amount for the poles and wires portion. That isn’t fair or equitable to the non solar users who then will have to pay a disproportionate share of YOUR avoided poles and wires costs even though you use those systems the same as you always did.

Now what happens if we all do that? Your local utility will have zero funding for poles and wires, or at least only a fraction of what they were getting and what they need - because at night you need 100% of the infrastructure but are paying for 0 or a reduced amount. The system economics will collapse.

It is analogous to gas tax funding roads and electric cars; a few EVs won’t be noticed but 10% will be noticed and 25% will be a huge problem, as the demands on the road are the same as before but the $ to maintain them isn’t there. We are already seeing that in some states as more efficient gas cars have dropped the gas tax revenue

I haven’t even touched on who and how we pay for baseload plants for cloudy/night/calm days when we all want 100% electricity availability but have “broken” the existing financial system to pay for the huge investment required.

This all varies state to state and in regulated vs deregulated markets, co/ops, municipal utilities, etc.

 

[5030]

burning corn to heat our homes(no conversion and very efficient)

Been doing that for at least the last 20 years Mossy. Best part for me is, it's free. All I have to do is drive my tractor with the pallet forks on it down the road about a mile and pick it up. It either comes bagged on skids or in Super Sacks. I always return the skids and super sacks but I roast the paper bags if it comes in them. Both my bio mass stoves are around 87% efficient too.

More work than setting the thermostat but a lot less expensive.

 

[workinonit]

That isn’t fair or equitable to the non solar users who then will have to pay a disproportionate share of YOUR avoided poles and wires costs even though you use those systems the same as you always did.

My coop is charging a $5/kW of solar power to offset this discrepency. I am limited to 12 kW so that's $60/mo added to the equation. Probably enough to make it a deal breaker.

 

[Oaktree]

I’d be better off spending less money than a solar system and super-insulating my house, replacing the windows and installing new, efficient HVAC.

That’s my situation currently. May not apply to others.

Yeah, same here. We're right behind a mountain, so we get very little sun from Nov-Mar when the sun is low in the sky so solar would have a really long payback. House is about as well insulated as it can be...it's plank construction so the walls are solid wood 4" thick. We re-did all the windows, plugged as many places drafts can get in as possible, and have a 3 season porch as an entry way. I'm in northern N.H. so A/C isn't anything we need.

I'm in kind of a unique situation as my biomass fuel (seed corn) I get for free so my fuel costs are negligible. I do mix in processed wood pellets with the seed corn at a ratio of 1 of pellets to 3 of corn and there is the issues of loading the units, cleaning them weekly and dumping the ashes but it's still way cheaper than relying on the utility (electric or in our case propane) for heat. Propane is steadily climbing presently. and so is electricity and I think everyone knows why.

Because I'm inherently cheap, I've been heating with biomass for at least 30 years now.

Even considered putting in a stoker coal stove in the house but rice coal around here is hard to obtain where as corn and processed wood pellets aren't and processed wood pellets are supposedly carbon neutral whatever that means.

Before joining TBN I'd never heard of using corn for fuel. Is it common in the midwest? I'd imagine rodents getting into your supply can be quite a problem!
I've been heating with firewood as long as I've been a homeowner (going on 50 years). I buy it now, but for many years I cut my own. Nice thing, it works when the power goes out, downside is that it's messy (and a fair amount of work, which I still enjoy).

I know the powers that be seem to be pushing us towards heat pumps...I suppose they make sense in states where it doesn't get too cold (and where you'd want A/C), but this far north not so much.

 

[LD1]

In general....coop's arent too friendly towards solar. And only pubic/for profit companies have been.....because the govt has a little more control over them and forcing the net metering crap down their throats. Basically....read the articals above....like in indiana.....they are pushing back.

Because in its current form....Net-metering and consumer grid-tied solar is NOT sustainable.

But read all the fine print from your coop. The companies that are offering true 1:1 net metering, allowing credits, and buying back surplus solar at retail rate.....(like roric's bill).....kudos to him....but its screwing all the non-solar customers and its not sustainable.

I have looked into solar. Take my own rural Coop for example. My bill is broken down loosely as follows:
Meter charge $50
G&T..............3¢ per kwh
Distribution....8¢ per kwh

So I am paying 11¢ per kwh for usage and $50 for the pleasure of being grid tied.

Coops dont "make" electricity. The purchase electricity from suppliers and deliver it to the more rural areas where the big players didnt see it as a wise investment.

So my Coop buys electricity for 3¢.......marks it up by 8¢ to get it to me on their poles and lines.

To do 1:1 net metering....that would mean buying/crediting electricity @ 11¢. In the interest of the rest of the consumers......why would my provider of electric willingly buy electric for 11¢ when their current suppliers are only charging them 3¢??

SO......what MY coop does for solar customers is simple.....you basically have TWO meters. If your solar is kicking @$$....their meter isnt spinning and your not buying "their" electric at 11¢. You are using yours. IF you are making surplus and sending back to grid.....the solar meter is spinning and you are selling back...but not at 11¢.....they will only pay you the same as their suppliers....3¢.....which actually makes sense in a business world.

The problem is......for most households....during peak solar production is actually the least demand on the house. Less lights, people at work or school, etc. And in the evening.....when solar production is minimal....thats when people are home taking showers, cooking, lights on, watching TV, etc.

So lets say you use 1000kwh/mo......and you have a solar system that makes 1000/mo. But you only used 200kwh of your power, and sold 800kwh back to the coop....which means you used 800kwh of theirs as a result. You owe them $88 for the 800kwh you pulled from the grid when your solar panels weren't keeping up......and they only owe you $24 for the 800kwh you made but didnt use immediately. So you will have a bill for $64 for usage, PLUS a $60 meter charge. (Forgot to mention, that the meter charge is $60 for solar and $50 for non-solar.)

So at 1000kwh usage.....with no solar......11¢ x 1000 = $110 + $50 = $160 bill for no solar
With solar sized to produce all the 1000kwh you use....you still have a $124 bill.
Sorry, I aint spending $20k or $30k for a system sized to produce ALL the power I need, only to save $36/mo. And I 100% understand why the coop is this way for reasons above. They arent gonna have 99% of the members subsidize the 1% that want solar. Thats the cost of using the grid as your battery. And my coop also does NOT pay out for surplus solar. The best you can do is offset the usage charge on the bill......but you will NEVER get below $60/mo for meter charge. Even if you produce 10,000kwh and only use 500kwh.....you STILL have a $60 bill.

The ONLY way on my coop to have a $0 bill is to go off-grid and deal with batterys.

Roric is a unique example of an electric company uses the non-solar companies to subsidize his solar. No offense intended....and kudos to him for making the smart play and taking advantage of it. And if my coop had net-metering practices like his power company I would do the same thing in a heartbeat.

But bottom line everytime these solar discussions come up.....the FIRST thing you need to do is get FULL understanding of how YOUR power company handles solar.....because they are ALL different

 

[workinonit]

Yep, they are all different for sure. With 12 kW solar system I would have to sell back enough excess to offset the $23/mo meter charge + $60/mo so;ar charge to end up net zero. The $60 is to penalize the solar customer for the customers that aren't solar. That being said, I have no idea how to calculate my excess power per month to even know if I can end up net zero. I think that is realistically doable. The wrench in the whole thing is that they can change the rules we play by at any time. It's definately a risk but is it a risk worth taking?

 

[LD1]

Yep, they are all different for sure. With 12 kW solar system I would have to sell back enough excess to offset the $23/mo meter charge + $60/mo so;ar charge to end up net zero. The $60 is to penalize the solar customer for the customers that aren't solar. That being said, I have no idea how to calculate my excess power per month to even know if I can end up net zero. I think that is realistically doable. The wrench in the whole thing is that they can change the rules we play by at any time. It's definately a risk but is it a risk worth taking?

Dont look at the $60/mo as a way to "penalize" you.

As I mentioned.....look at it as a way to protect their other customers.

People dont have a choice of electric provider like other things. You dont like the price one gas station charges, you can drive across town to another. You dont like the cost of one propane supplier, you can switch suppliers or go to another form of heat like wood or electric.

But electric is different. Big producers, whether wind, coal, nuclear, solar, etc make electricity on a massive scale and are highly regulated. But they charge ~3¢ or so to your distributor who then resells it to everyone else. Why would it be beneficial to "force" your distributor to buy YOUR generated electricity at 4x the price? They aint paying for it. They pass it on to everyone else who shares in the subsidizing of residential solar.

But even in your case.....I have wrestled with the same decisions as to whether it makes sense. And thats all we can do as individuals, because everyones power company is different. IF numbers make sense and the ROI is acceptable.....go for it.

But......I would question your power company a little more. Can you TRULY get to a $0 bill with a large enough system? IF they are charging you $60/month ($5/kwh) for solar....can that actually be offset by generation? Cause I would think it wouldnt. Just sounds like different wording to arrive at the same end result as my coop. Also, the meter charge? can that truly be offset?......And if you generate excess above and beyond usage....are they truly gonna write you a check? or are you just gonna get a "thank you" for the free electricity you put back on the grid.

Roric's situation I think is NOT the normal for a solar agreement/arrangement with a power provider. Basically, (him being the exception) there is no free lunch. You cant use the grid, and have electricity at night, and the stability all for free.

 

[MossRoad]

Yep, they are all different for sure. With 12 kW solar system I would have to sell back enough excess to offset the $23/mo meter charge + $60/mo so;ar charge to end up net zero. The $60 is to penalize the solar customer for the customers that aren't solar. That being said, I have no idea how to calculate my excess power per month to even know if I can end up net zero. I think that is realistically doable. The wrench in the whole thing is that they can change the rules we play by at any time. It's definately a risk but is it a risk worth taking?

You have to remember that even if you’re net zero, where you made enough electricity to sell back to the electric company to come out even, you still haven’t paid a penny towards the cost of the system, have you?

System costs $10K.
Monthly electric bill is $100.
You sell them back enough electricity to offset that $100.
That’s net zero.

BUT!

You still owe $10K for the system.

So some say, well, I didn’t have to pay them the $100, so that goes towards the cost of the system, so I saved $100 that month.

That’s not where the savings is and not where the money to pay off the system comes from.

The money to pay off the system comes from anything MORE than the $100 that you’d be saving VS your average monthly electricity cost.

So if your average electricity bill was $150 per month before the system was installed, you have to subtract the $100 fee from the $150 average and then you find you’re only getting about $50 per month average to put towards the $10K cost of the system.

$50 X 12 months is only $600 per year. It’ll take 16.7 years of that to pay off the $10K IF there’s no interest on the $10K and IF there are no maintenance costs to the system over that 16.7 years.

You really have to run the numbers carefully to make sure there’s no hocus-pocus in your figures. It’s easy to miss.

 

[workinonit]

They limit you to no larger system than your highest past 12 mo peak month. In my case 11.6 kW. So they will let me install 12 kW. That is a built in limit and could possibly keep me from being zero net but I don't think it will. I just don't know yet. Regardless, they do allow a true zero net at 1:1. It's calculated by subtracting my production from my usage. Interesting question you asked that I haven't asked or even considered is will they write me a check at the end of the year if I'm net positive. I will ask that.

 

[workinonit]

Moss, I respect you and I get what you are saying but that's fuzzy math. If you approach it that way it would be a 50 year payoff and no one would own one. With that approach you would be just as well off putting $20K in an interest bearing account and using it to pay your power bill until it runs out. Only difference is at the end of that time you will be back to paying a $200 to $300 power bill with no production. Look, I haven't decided to do this yet and my wife isn't crazy about the idea but I must say it is enticing to think of no power bill when I retire.

 

[LD1]

They limit you to no larger system than your highest past 12 mo peak month. In my case 11.6 kW. So they will let me install 12 kW. That is a built in limit and could possibly keep me from being zero net but I don't think it will. I just don't know yet. Regardless, they do allow a true zero net at 1:1. It's calculated by subtracting my production from my usage. Interesting question you asked that I haven't asked or even considered is will they write me a check at the end of the year if I'm net positive. I will ask that.

Yes, you need to ask alot of questions and get things in writing or get supporting literature from them.

From my experience every time I have asked my coop about things (cause its everchanging), it seems you get alot of vague answers and nothing definitive or that can be backed up in writing.

I could be wrong, But I would wager a guess that if you installed a 12kwh system....you are STILL gonna have at MINIMUM a $84/mo bill if you manage to produce at least as much as you consume. IF you produce less.....your bill will be more. IF you produce more, I dont think you are gonna get a credit or a check at the end of the year.

 

[LD1]

You have to remember that even if you’re net zero, where you made enough electricity to sell back to the electric company to come out even, you still haven’t paid a penny towards the cost of the system, have you?

System costs $10K.
Monthly electric bill is $100.
You sell them back enough electricity to offset that $100.
That’s net zero.

BUT!

You still owe $10K for the system.

So some say, well, I didn’t have to pay them the $100, so that goes towards the cost of the system, so I saved $100 that month.

That’s not where the savings is and not where the money to pay off the system comes from.

The money to pay off the system comes from anything MORE than the $100 that you’d be saving VS your average monthly electricity cost.

So if your average electricity bill was $150 per month before the system was installed, you have to subtract the $100 fee from the $150 average and then you find you’re only getting about $50 per month average to put towards the $10K cost of the system.

$50 X 12 months is only $600 per year. It’ll take 16.7 years of that to pay off the $10K IF there’s no interest on the $10K and IF there are no maintenance costs to the system over that 16.7 years.

You really have to run the numbers carefully to make sure there’s no hocus-pocus in your figures. It’s easy to miss.

I disagree with the logic.

Using YOUR numbers.....$10k system....$100/mo bill, and you can net-zero......That $100/month that WAS going toward the electric company is now going in your pocket. $100/mo saved is $100/month saved.

IF the system cost $10k (not counting inflation or anything)......in 100 months.....your system would be paid off. So pay $10k up front....and then you dont have to pay the electric company $10k over the next 100 months. So 8.33year payback. Beyond that, the system is paid for, and you are making electricity for you house and no having to pay anyone for it as long as you have no system breakdowns or repairs to factor in.

The fact that MOST people that even have solar do NOT generate more than they use, and MOST people STILL have to pay their electric company something, says your logic is wrong.

Once you can get the electric company to level with you, and get some hard numbers to run, it becomes a simple calculation......

Spend $x on a system, and save $y per month off your bill. $x/$y is how many months the break-even point is. The only unknown variables in the rather simple equation become future electric rates (inflation) and unforeseen system maintenance or panel degradation.

 

[workinonit]

Yes, you need to ask alot of questions and get things in writing or get supporting literature from them.

From my experience every time I have asked my coop about things (cause its everchanging), it seems you get alot of vague answers and nothing definitive or that can be backed up in writing.

I could be wrong, But I would wager a guess that if you installed a 12kwh system....you are STILL gonna have at MINIMUM a $84/mo bill if you manage to produce at least as much as you consume. IF you produce less.....your bill will be more. IF you produce more, I dont think you are gonna get a credit or a check at the end of the year.

I have verified verbally and in writing that the solar power can offset the entire power bill including the base monthly fees and the solar assessment.

 

[5030]

Before joining TBN I'd never heard of using corn for fuel. Is it common in the midwest? I'd imagine rodents getting into your supply can be quite a problem!
I've been heating with firewood as long as I've been a homeowner (going on 50 years).

Biomass is very popular and there are a couple forums dedicated to it. It's especially popular in eastern states but not corn, processed wood pellets. Not a whole bunch of corn burners like myself because an ordinary biomass stove cannot burn corn, takes a special unit to run corn, one that has the built in algorithms in the computer to properly combust it. All the biomass stoves with the exception of one, are all solid state controlled but they really don't consume much power (typically 125 watts, mostly to run the convection and combustion fans) and most owners like myself have them on alternative power supplies in case the utility fails.

Forums like Hearth.com and Firewood Hoarders.com have biomass only sections if you care to look.

I run corn here because it's readily available to me and it's cheap as in free but most, I'd say 95% of biomass stove owners burn processed wood pellets.

I heat the house and my shop with them.

 

[ultrarunner]

Have not paid for a kW since install and the buyback covers all the fixed monthly but this is changing in favor of utility.

Who knew it costs almost nothing to generate and a fortune to distribute?

But with time of use and tiered rates easily over 40 cents kW it still makes sense.

I wanted to track the sun but was told the extra kW generated could be offset by adding a couple of more panels.

6kW system using 2008 panels...

On a side note I did all the work with permit for my ground mount 3 array system.

Utility gave me a very hard time to commission...

I mentioned this to a small family solar contractor and he said he would do a site visit with review for $160...

Money well spent... he said excellent install and all my numbers good.

I said why the kick back and he said it is because owner builder system and fear if liability.

He said let me add my contractor license on the package and submit... 10 days later approved!

Now as far as Utility concerned a contractor in the mix...

 

[LD1]

Good to know that it can.

IF your coop has a good engineer.....ask them to mock up an example bill. Or ask them to see another solar customers bill (omitting any personal data/acct #'s) for you to reference.

On the surface......it seems like if you use 12kwh/yr and install a system that makes 12kwh/year.....you will be 1:1 and you wont owe them for usage and they wont owe you. But that dont leave you with making any extra to offset the $60/month charge and the $24/mo meter fee.

In the summer.....they may owe you a bit.....but you'll give it right back in the winter.

So.....at 1000kwh/mo average usage....what is your average bill? OR what did you pay them total for the year over the past 12mo? Because even after solar....I think you are still gonna owe them $84/mo.....or ~$1000/yr.

Your rates may be different than mine.....but for 1000kwh/mo I would owe my coop~$160/mo So my savings would be $76/mo

To pay a system off in 10 years (which I would consider a maximum ROI for me)....the total system would need to cost under $9120