Solar Interest and Selling Power Back

[LD1]

Yep, they are all different for sure. With 12 kW solar system I would have to sell back enough excess to offset the $23/mo meter charge + $60/mo so;ar charge to end up net zero. The $60 is to penalize the solar customer for the customers that aren't solar. That being said, I have no idea how to calculate my excess power per month to even know if I can end up net zero. I think that is realistically doable. The wrench in the whole thing is that they can change the rules we play by at any time. It's definately a risk but is it a risk worth taking?

Dont look at the $60/mo as a way to "penalize" you.

As I mentioned.....look at it as a way to protect their other customers.

People dont have a choice of electric provider like other things. You dont like the price one gas station charges, you can drive across town to another. You dont like the cost of one propane supplier, you can switch suppliers or go to another form of heat like wood or electric.

But electric is different. Big producers, whether wind, coal, nuclear, solar, etc make electricity on a massive scale and are highly regulated. But they charge ~3¢ or so to your distributor who then resells it to everyone else. Why would it be beneficial to "force" your distributor to buy YOUR generated electricity at 4x the price? They aint paying for it. They pass it on to everyone else who shares in the subsidizing of residential solar.

But even in your case.....I have wrestled with the same decisions as to whether it makes sense. And thats all we can do as individuals, because everyones power company is different. IF numbers make sense and the ROI is acceptable.....go for it.

But......I would question your power company a little more. Can you TRULY get to a $0 bill with a large enough system? IF they are charging you $60/month ($5/kwh) for solar....can that actually be offset by generation? Cause I would think it wouldnt. Just sounds like different wording to arrive at the same end result as my coop. Also, the meter charge? can that truly be offset?......And if you generate excess above and beyond usage....are they truly gonna write you a check? or are you just gonna get a "thank you" for the free electricity you put back on the grid.

Roric's situation I think is NOT the normal for a solar agreement/arrangement with a power provider. Basically, (him being the exception) there is no free lunch. You cant use the grid, and have electricity at night, and the stability all for free.

 

[MossRoad]

Yep, they are all different for sure. With 12 kW solar system I would have to sell back enough excess to offset the $23/mo meter charge + $60/mo so;ar charge to end up net zero. The $60 is to penalize the solar customer for the customers that aren't solar. That being said, I have no idea how to calculate my excess power per month to even know if I can end up net zero. I think that is realistically doable. The wrench in the whole thing is that they can change the rules we play by at any time. It's definately a risk but is it a risk worth taking?

You have to remember that even if you’re net zero, where you made enough electricity to sell back to the electric company to come out even, you still haven’t paid a penny towards the cost of the system, have you?

System costs $10K.
Monthly electric bill is $100.
You sell them back enough electricity to offset that $100.
That’s net zero.

BUT!

You still owe $10K for the system.

So some say, well, I didn’t have to pay them the $100, so that goes towards the cost of the system, so I saved $100 that month.

That’s not where the savings is and not where the money to pay off the system comes from.

The money to pay off the system comes from anything MORE than the $100 that you’d be saving VS your average monthly electricity cost.

So if your average electricity bill was $150 per month before the system was installed, you have to subtract the $100 fee from the $150 average and then you find you’re only getting about $50 per month average to put towards the $10K cost of the system.

$50 X 12 months is only $600 per year. It’ll take 16.7 years of that to pay off the $10K IF there’s no interest on the $10K and IF there are no maintenance costs to the system over that 16.7 years.

You really have to run the numbers carefully to make sure there’s no hocus-pocus in your figures. It’s easy to miss.

 

[workinonit]

They limit you to no larger system than your highest past 12 mo peak month. In my case 11.6 kW. So they will let me install 12 kW. That is a built in limit and could possibly keep me from being zero net but I don't think it will. I just don't know yet. Regardless, they do allow a true zero net at 1:1. It's calculated by subtracting my production from my usage. Interesting question you asked that I haven't asked or even considered is will they write me a check at the end of the year if I'm net positive. I will ask that.

 

[workinonit]

Moss, I respect you and I get what you are saying but that's fuzzy math. If you approach it that way it would be a 50 year payoff and no one would own one. With that approach you would be just as well off putting $20K in an interest bearing account and using it to pay your power bill until it runs out. Only difference is at the end of that time you will be back to paying a $200 to $300 power bill with no production. Look, I haven't decided to do this yet and my wife isn't crazy about the idea but I must say it is enticing to think of no power bill when I retire.

 

[LD1]

They limit you to no larger system than your highest past 12 mo peak month. In my case 11.6 kW. So they will let me install 12 kW. That is a built in limit and could possibly keep me from being zero net but I don't think it will. I just don't know yet. Regardless, they do allow a true zero net at 1:1. It's calculated by subtracting my production from my usage. Interesting question you asked that I haven't asked or even considered is will they write me a check at the end of the year if I'm net positive. I will ask that.

Yes, you need to ask alot of questions and get things in writing or get supporting literature from them.

From my experience every time I have asked my coop about things (cause its everchanging), it seems you get alot of vague answers and nothing definitive or that can be backed up in writing.

I could be wrong, But I would wager a guess that if you installed a 12kwh system....you are STILL gonna have at MINIMUM a $84/mo bill if you manage to produce at least as much as you consume. IF you produce less.....your bill will be more. IF you produce more, I dont think you are gonna get a credit or a check at the end of the year.

 

[LD1]

You have to remember that even if you’re net zero, where you made enough electricity to sell back to the electric company to come out even, you still haven’t paid a penny towards the cost of the system, have you?

System costs $10K.
Monthly electric bill is $100.
You sell them back enough electricity to offset that $100.
That’s net zero.

BUT!

You still owe $10K for the system.

So some say, well, I didn’t have to pay them the $100, so that goes towards the cost of the system, so I saved $100 that month.

That’s not where the savings is and not where the money to pay off the system comes from.

The money to pay off the system comes from anything MORE than the $100 that you’d be saving VS your average monthly electricity cost.

So if your average electricity bill was $150 per month before the system was installed, you have to subtract the $100 fee from the $150 average and then you find you’re only getting about $50 per month average to put towards the $10K cost of the system.

$50 X 12 months is only $600 per year. It’ll take 16.7 years of that to pay off the $10K IF there’s no interest on the $10K and IF there are no maintenance costs to the system over that 16.7 years.

You really have to run the numbers carefully to make sure there’s no hocus-pocus in your figures. It’s easy to miss.

I disagree with the logic.

Using YOUR numbers.....$10k system....$100/mo bill, and you can net-zero......That $100/month that WAS going toward the electric company is now going in your pocket. $100/mo saved is $100/month saved.

IF the system cost $10k (not counting inflation or anything)......in 100 months.....your system would be paid off. So pay $10k up front....and then you dont have to pay the electric company $10k over the next 100 months. So 8.33year payback. Beyond that, the system is paid for, and you are making electricity for you house and no having to pay anyone for it as long as you have no system breakdowns or repairs to factor in.

The fact that MOST people that even have solar do NOT generate more than they use, and MOST people STILL have to pay their electric company something, says your logic is wrong.

Once you can get the electric company to level with you, and get some hard numbers to run, it becomes a simple calculation......

Spend $x on a system, and save $y per month off your bill. $x/$y is how many months the break-even point is. The only unknown variables in the rather simple equation become future electric rates (inflation) and unforeseen system maintenance or panel degradation.

 

[workinonit]

Yes, you need to ask alot of questions and get things in writing or get supporting literature from them.

From my experience every time I have asked my coop about things (cause its everchanging), it seems you get alot of vague answers and nothing definitive or that can be backed up in writing.

I could be wrong, But I would wager a guess that if you installed a 12kwh system....you are STILL gonna have at MINIMUM a $84/mo bill if you manage to produce at least as much as you consume. IF you produce less.....your bill will be more. IF you produce more, I dont think you are gonna get a credit or a check at the end of the year.

I have verified verbally and in writing that the solar power can offset the entire power bill including the base monthly fees and the solar assessment.

 

[5030]

Before joining TBN I'd never heard of using corn for fuel. Is it common in the midwest? I'd imagine rodents getting into your supply can be quite a problem!
I've been heating with firewood as long as I've been a homeowner (going on 50 years).

Biomass is very popular and there are a couple forums dedicated to it. It's especially popular in eastern states but not corn, processed wood pellets. Not a whole bunch of corn burners like myself because an ordinary biomass stove cannot burn corn, takes a special unit to run corn, one that has the built in algorithms in the computer to properly combust it. All the biomass stoves with the exception of one, are all solid state controlled but they really don't consume much power (typically 125 watts, mostly to run the convection and combustion fans) and most owners like myself have them on alternative power supplies in case the utility fails.

Forums like Hearth.com and Firewood Hoarders.com have biomass only sections if you care to look.

I run corn here because it's readily available to me and it's cheap as in free but most, I'd say 95% of biomass stove owners burn processed wood pellets.

I heat the house and my shop with them.

 

[ultrarunner]

Have not paid for a kW since install and the buyback covers all the fixed monthly but this is changing in favor of utility.

Who knew it costs almost nothing to generate and a fortune to distribute?

But with time of use and tiered rates easily over 40 cents kW it still makes sense.

I wanted to track the sun but was told the extra kW generated could be offset by adding a couple of more panels.

6kW system using 2008 panels...

On a side note I did all the work with permit for my ground mount 3 array system.

Utility gave me a very hard time to commission...

I mentioned this to a small family solar contractor and he said he would do a site visit with review for $160...

Money well spent... he said excellent install and all my numbers good.

I said why the kick back and he said it is because owner builder system and fear if liability.

He said let me add my contractor license on the package and submit... 10 days later approved!

Now as far as Utility concerned a contractor in the mix...

 

[LD1]

Good to know that it can.

IF your coop has a good engineer.....ask them to mock up an example bill. Or ask them to see another solar customers bill (omitting any personal data/acct #'s) for you to reference.

On the surface......it seems like if you use 12kwh/yr and install a system that makes 12kwh/year.....you will be 1:1 and you wont owe them for usage and they wont owe you. But that dont leave you with making any extra to offset the $60/month charge and the $24/mo meter fee.

In the summer.....they may owe you a bit.....but you'll give it right back in the winter.

So.....at 1000kwh/mo average usage....what is your average bill? OR what did you pay them total for the year over the past 12mo? Because even after solar....I think you are still gonna owe them $84/mo.....or ~$1000/yr.

Your rates may be different than mine.....but for 1000kwh/mo I would owe my coop~$160/mo So my savings would be $76/mo

To pay a system off in 10 years (which I would consider a maximum ROI for me)....the total system would need to cost under $9120