Hard starting 2400H - lift pump failing?

[oldnslo]

My 2400H has developed problem where it is very hard to get started when engine is at ambient temps of 30 - 50 degrees F. It will crank and sputter and then finally start and run rough like on two cylinders for several seconds before firing on all three. This was a pretty sudden change since used to start fairly easy.

Things I have checked:
Replaced fuel filter. No water or strange substances in fuel filter
Triple checked glow plugs to confirm resistance was similar on all of them
verified getting 12 volts to the glow plugs
Battery is good and turns engine over at decent speed

Fuel flow path is: Gravity feed from fuel tank to filter inlet, filter outlet to mechanical lift pump, lift pump feeds main injector pump.

Question: Would a failing lift or feed pump cause this? Per engine manual lift only provides 3 - 5 PSI. Seems like this would be common element that could cause low fuel flow to the main injector pump and once engine is running possibly supply adequate flow to keep it running. Have not worked engine hard since this problem started but seems to run fine once started.

There is no room between lift pump and main injector pump to install a gauge to confirm pressure.

 

[RjCorazza]

Don't know the age of your machine, but have you checked all fuel lines for cracking or poor connections? Sucking air could account for the starting issues you describe,

 

[oldnslo]

If I remember correctly is either 2013 or 2014 with approx 800 hrs on the clock. Lines do not look cracked but will look again and potentially just change them since that removes another variable.

 

[Fixastuff]

Do you hear the lift pump clicking?

 

[ericm979]

Did you change fuel brand or type recently? I ask because I switched to "renewable" diesel recently and I notice that it starts easily on all cylinders when it's < 50 degrees like it used to when it was new. The last few years it's often started on a couple with the rest joining in within a couple seconds. Going from no biodiesel in the fuel to some might make it start worse.

 

[oldnslo]

Do you hear the lift pump clicking?

With my hearing loss I do not hear anything but normal diesel engine sounds.

 

[oldnslo]

Did you change fuel brand or type recently? I ask because I switched to "renewable" diesel recently and I notice that it starts easily on all cylinders when it's < 50 degrees like it used to when it was new. The last few years it's often started on a couple with the rest joining in within a couple seconds. Going from no biodiesel in the fuel to some might make it start worse.

Bought fuel from same place only difference might be winter blend vs summer. I believe problem was present before filled fuel barrel but do not remember for sure.

 

[Fixastuff]

With my hearing loss I do not hear anything but normal diesel engine sounds.

When the key is on(engine not running) the little electric fuel pump should be clicking. If you can’t hear you should be able to feel it with your hand.

 

[oldnslo]

When the key is on(engine not running) the little electric fuel pump should be clicking. If you can’t hear you should be able to feel it with your hand.

The feed pump is mechanical not electric on this engine.

I did replace fuel line between the filter and and pump and also pulled line from feed pump to main pump to check flow. It seemed to pump decent volume and covering end of hose with thumb it would spray some so could be 3 - 5 PSI. Had air is system so started hard but will let sit and cool off to try it again later.

 

[Fixastuff]

The feed pump is mechanical not electric on this engine.

I did replace fuel line between the filter and and pump and also pulled line from feed pump to main pump to check flow. It seemed to pump decent volume and covering end of hose with thumb it would spray some so could be 3 - 5 PSI. Had air is system so started hard but will let sit and cool off to try it again later.

Weird every 2400 I’ve seen had a little electric pump that comes on when the key is on.

 

[Fixastuff]

The feed pump is mechanical not electric on this engine.

I did replace fuel line between the filter and and pump and also pulled line from feed pump to main pump to check flow. It seemed to pump decent volume and covering end of hose with thumb it would spray some so could be 3 - 5 PSI. Had air is system so started hard but will let sit and cool off to try it again later.

The parts diagram says different. I’ve worked a quite a few of thes, only tractor dealer anywhere near me was a Branson. Now TYM and LS.

 

[oldnslo]

Fix
I found a 2014 parts diagram that shows mechanical and also that diagram showing electric. Best guess is there was design change at some point.

P/n HT18010000A

I do appreciate your help

 

[Fixastuff]

Fix
I found a 2014 parts diagram that shows mechanical and also that diagram showing electric. Best guess is there was design change at some point.

P/n HT18010000A

I do appreciate your help

Thank you for teaching me something. I’ve only seen them with electric.

 

[oldnslo]

View of filter, lift pump and injector pump on my 2400H.

Changing that line between filter and lift pump did not help. Ran it for around half hour doing some light loader work and seemed to run fine.
Trying to be methodical in diagnosis procedure but at loss on what to check next. Feel like I am missing something.


Really don’t want to pull injectors since would they all fail at same time and would looking at spray pattern tell me anything?

 

[K5lwq]

I would not suspect the injectors. But if fuel is losing prime after sitting, I could see it behaving this way.

I keep a cheap electric fuel pump for checking issues like this. Just temporarily plumb it in and wire it with jumpers off the battery. If it makes a difference then I keep chasing that direction.

Most of the time what you are experiencing is glow plug issues but you seem to have covered that.

 

[Zork]

My 2400H has developed problem where it is very hard to get started when engine is at ambient temps of 30 - 50 degrees F. It will crank and sputter and then finally start and run rough like on two cylinders for several seconds before firing on all three. This was a pretty sudden change since used to start fairly easy.

Things I have checked:
Replaced fuel filter. No water or strange substances in fuel filter
Triple checked glow plugs to confirm resistance was similar on all of them
verified getting 12 volts to the glow plugs
Battery is good and turns engine over at decent speed

Fuel flow path is: Gravity feed from fuel tank to filter inlet, filter outlet to mechanical lift pump, lift pump feeds main injector pump.

Question: Would a failing lift or feed pump cause this? Per engine manual lift only provides 3 - 5 PSI. Seems like this would be common element that could cause low fuel flow to the main injector pump and once engine is running possibly supply adequate flow to keep it running. Have not worked engine hard since this problem started but seems to run fine once started.

There is no room between lift pump and main injector pump to install a gauge to confirm pressure.

How does it start if you run two or more GP cycles when it's cold? Could be air if it does this only on initial start up after sitting a while (depends on size of air leak, if applicable). Diesels rely on compression for combustion, low compression will cause harder starts, especially when cold. I do not think a failing pump will improve after start up unless vibration at start up causes the pump to operate-check electrical connections [yours is mechanical and operating on suction which can be deceiving because leaks are less obvious on negative pressure/suction lines]. I can hear my electric pump chatter when I turn my key on. There is likely a very fine screen inside the inlet of the IP, but this blockage should cause complete fuel starvation.

 

[Zork]

View of filter, lift pump and injector pump on my 2400H.
View attachment 858146
Changing that line between filter and lift pump did not help. Ran it for around half hour doing some light loader work and seemed to run fine.
Trying to be methodical in diagnosis procedure but at loss on what to check next. Feel like I am missing something.


Really don’t want to pull injectors since would they all fail at same time and would looking at spray pattern tell me anything?

** I FORGOT** Get rid of that piece of crap filter combo. I removed mine in the second (?) year because the fittings are pressed in and sealed with a nail polish like material and they loosen easily, leak and suck air. I put a straight clear auto filter in line.

 

[Zork]

After looking at your photo again, many surfaces near/above/below the IP appears wet. Is it fuel or oil? Additionally, do you have an external solenoid/lever fuel cut off or is it an internal cut off switch?

 

[oldnslo]

Zork,
The reason it looks wet - shiny behind the injector pump is that I used a soap and water cleaning solution to clean the area around the glow plugs and injectors. Wanted this area clean before checking glow plugs. I had spilled some oil the last oil change so was a little grime build up in that area.

Cycling glow plugs makes no difference. I actually tried removing timer circuit and wired them direct to battery via separate switch so I am the timer with no change.

Fuel filter was replaced by dealer 1st year of owner ship for the reasons you stated of leaking fittings. This filter those fittings have stayed tight and show no signs of leakage but still a valid thing to check.

I have not looked at how the stop solenoid is mounted but believe it is on between engine block and injector pump.

Some idiot put the loader back on last night so now harder to access things..

Thinking will try K5's idea of getting electric lift pump to see if that makes any difference.

 

[RjCorazza]

What about the seemingly cracked banjo bolt right after the lift pump in the photo?
I think it would be a good idea to clean that whole area up real good before any further troubleshooting.