Hydraulic Submersible Pumps

[rScotty]

I'm considering a project using a tractor to drive a hydraulic submersible water pump in a creek or pond.

If anyone has experience or a pump to offer I'm interested.

A pump to do this needs to output a minimum of 50/90 psi @ 200 gpm through a 3" camlock fitting. And pass 3/8 to 1/2 inch solids.

Thanks,
rScotty

 

[bmaverick]

I'm considering a project using a tractor to drive a hydraulic submersible water pump in a creek or pond.

If anyone has experience or a pump to offer I'm interested.

A pump to do this needs to output a minimum of 50/90 psi @ 200 gpm through a 3" camlock fitting. And pass 3/8 to 1/2 inch solids.

Thanks,
rScotty

You want one to work off of a Yanmar PTO ? Or for a under $199 from Menards typically called a sewage pump?

We had/have flooding each Spring (except this year). I have a Brute plastic tall thick garbage can, place the submersible pump in there, and sunk it into the lowest spot in the yard to prevent the garage from flooding. It then sends the collected rain water or melting snows out the discharge some 300FT away and down a slope. Noting pools up anymore, nor does the garage have to swim in 4-inches of water.

They want too much money for this setup, so I made my own like it.

The pump I got. It's lightening fast removing the water, even in heave Spring flooding rains. Don't go less than 3/4Hp. Seriously.

Barracuda® 3/4 HP Cast Iron Submersible Sewage Pump

The Barracuda® 3/4 HP submersible sewage pump is designed for effective wastewater removal from your home or small business. It delivers powerful performance, capable of pumping 5,400 gallons per hour (GPH) at zero feet of vertical lift, with a maximum lift height of 26 feet. Barracuda® stands...

www.menards.com

This will pass up to 1-inch solids with no problems. And I have a reducer on it to go from 2" FIP to 3" PVC pipe.

The Barracuda® 3/4 HP Sewage Pump offers both performance and reliability. Built strong, the Barracuda® Sewage Pump features high quality components and is designed specifically for sewage applications. 691-1676 features include: Cast Iron construction, tethered float switch with piggy-back cord, 2 in. FPT discharge, clog free vortex impeller, 10 ft. power cord, and carrying handle. The permanent split capacitor 3/4 hp motor with built-in thermal overload protection offers performance of 5400 gallons per hour and will pump up to 25 ft. vertical height (head). Pump is CSA certified and is backed by a 2-year limited warranty.

Features

Cast Iron Construction

• Pumps up to 5400 gallons per hour
• Tethered float switch with piggyback plug
• 2" FIP Discharge
• Clog free vortex impeller
• 10' power cord
• Carrying handle attached
• 3/4 HP Motor
• Powerful yet energy efficient (10 amps)
• Built-in thermal overload protection for safety
• Permanent split capacitor continuous duty motor

 

[rScotty]

That's a nice dewatering design, maverick. I've seen and made up several similar and use them around our basement and barn. They are popular with ourhigh water table here.

The project I have in mind that needs a pump will have to move a lot more water than an electric motor can do. And it must pull from greater depth than a suction type mechanical PTO pump can do.

That's why I am looking for is a hydraulically-powered submersible pump type rather than PTO or electric. I'll probably run it off the 90hp JD 310 backhoe. Construction hoes are set up for running remote hydraulic motors.

It turns out that new hydraulic submersibles are expensive, so I'm hoping someone has a used one available.
Most of the 3" outlet submersibles would work.
rScotty

 

[redman135]

rScotty, how much lift/head are we talking?
Would three of the electric pumps in post 2 work?

 

[ptsg]

Can you buy a PTO pump that would do what you want but then put an hydraulic motor to it instead? Maybe make it so you could either run of a PTO of a tractor or quickly mount the motor and run of the hydraulics of the backhoe.

 

[mikester]

I'm surprised that you say electric wouldn't work as well as hydraulic. Head/pressure losses are a problem for long hydraulic runs too.

Personally I'd avoid using hydraulics for potable water in a drilled well as I wouldn't want to contaminate the aquifer if and when there is a hydraulic leak.

 

[leonz]

I'm considering a project using a tractor to drive a hydraulic submersible water pump in a creek or pond.

If anyone has experience or a pump to offer I'm interested.

A pump to do this needs to output a minimum of 50/90 psi @ 200 gpm through a 3" camlock fitting. And pass 3/8 to 1/2 inch solids.

Thanks,
rScotty

Hello rscotty,

You are looking for a primed conventional trash pump with a basket strainer on the suction line.
A new gasoline powered centrifugal pump with a foot valve on the suction line will do this for you
using longer hoses if you do not want to have the loader bucket close to the water source for much
less money.

 

[rScotty]

rScotty, how much lift/head are we talking?
Would three of the electric pumps in post 2 work?

No, that type pump just doesn't make enough pressure. Enough of them together would certainly have enough flow rate (gallons per minute), but without the pressure they cannot work a nozzle or sprinkler very well. .

The combination of pressure and flow I'm looking to do takes a minimum of 12 horsepower. With a centrifugal pump running the same speed, the clearance between rotor and case determines if it is a pressure pump made for high PSI, or a bulk flow pump made for high GPM. In the pump trade, those are called either fluid pumps or trash pumps.

Pumps for pressure or for flow rate use the same HP, but apply it in different ways.

Can you buy a PTO pump that would do what you want but then put an hydraulic motor to it instead? Maybe make it so you could either run of a PTO of a tractor or quickly mount the motor and run of the hydraulics of the backhoe.

Sure, that can be done. It's not even difficult. But where is the advantage? For example, most skidsteer powered implements use a hydraulic motor instead of a PTO shaft. And all industrial equipment does.
I think the advantage to the tractor mechanical shaft drive PTO is mostly in the tradition.

I'm surprised that you say electric wouldn't work as well as hydraulic. Head/pressure losses are a problem for long hydraulic runs too.

Personally I'd avoid using hydraulics for potable water in a drilled well as I wouldn't want to contaminate the aquifer if and when there is a hydraulic leak.

Electric works just fine. But compare the size of a 12 hp electric motor to a 12 hp hydraulic.
Anyone can pick up a 12 hp hydraulic motor with one hand. A 12 hp electric is lots bigger, and probably takes a 460 volt 3 phase supply...

For wells, so would I, but how did potable wells get into this thread??

Hello rscotty,

You are looking for a primed conventional trash pump with a basket strainer on the suction line.
A new gasoline powered centrifugal pump with a foot valve on the suction line will do this for you
using longer hoses if you do not want to have the loader bucket close to the water source for much
less money.

I've seen that work. A foot valve means it doesn't need constant priming to restart. I agree that those engne-driven suction pumps are pretty good for the money if they can be mounted right near the surface of the water. But I'm 20 feet above the supply and suction pumps simply loose too much in the lift.
If I had a big V8 engine to drive the pump then I'd use that kind of suction pump and overcome the problems with pure HP. That's what Fire Trucks do when pulling from a pond or pool.

But with limited HP, it works better to push water than to pull on it.

Thanks for the suggestions,
rScotty

 

[MossRoad]

I'm considering a project using a tractor to drive a hydraulic submersible water pump in a creek or pond.

If anyone has experience or a pump to offer I'm interested.

A pump to do this needs to output a minimum of 50/90 psi @ 200 gpm through a 3" camlock fitting. And pass 3/8 to 1/2 inch solids.

Thanks,
rScotty

PowerTrac sells a 400gpm 2" hydraulic sump pump. It's about $1850.

Power Trac

Compact Tractors, Slope Mowers, Articulated Tractors, Tractor Attachments, Trailer Packages

www.power-trac.com

 

[rScotty]

PowerTrac sells a 400gpm 2" hydraulic sump pump. It's about $1850.

Power Trac

Compact Tractors, Slope Mowers, Articulated Tractors, Tractor Attachments, Trailer Packages

www.power-trac.com

I went to their link but didn't see it. That's a lot of water, but is about typical for the flow rate that those hydraulic submersible pumps put at low pressure - like pumping out a pond or pool.
Running sprinklers needs more pressure, which means less flow rate. But still a lot of water moved.
I keep coming back to 200 gpm at about 50/60 psi is what is needed.

 

[bmaverick]

I went to their link but didn't see it. That's a lot of water, but is about typical for the flow rate that those hydraulic submersible pumps put at low pressure - like pumping out a pond or pool.
Running sprinklers needs more pressure, which means less flow rate. But still a lot of water moved.
I keep coming back to 200 gpm at about 50/60 psi is what is needed.

50/60psi and a 200FT below the ground is my well pump. hmmm

 

[rScotty]

50/60psi and a 200FT below the ground is my well pump. hmmm

Yes, that would be typical of a good household submersible well pump on 220V. How many gpm do you think your well pump puts out at that psi?

 

[MossRoad]

I went to their link but didn't see it. That's a lot of water, but is about typical for the flow rate that those hydraulic submersible pumps put at low pressure - like pumping out a pond or pool.
Running sprinklers needs more pressure, which means less flow rate. But still a lot of water moved.
I keep coming back to 200 gpm at about 50/60 psi is what is needed.

It's listed in their price sheets.

 

[jonsstihl]

sounds like you are designing a fire suppression sprinkler system. your 1/2 inch solids would probably plug up sprinklers. maybe you could run it in zones with a manifold to reduce the flow required by the system.

 

[bmaverick]

sounds like you are designing a fire suppression sprinkler system. your 1/2 inch solids would probably plug up sprinklers. maybe you could run it in zones with a manifold to reduce the flow required by the system.

He does live out in CO. And fires out there are often enough. I can now realistically understand the need.

 

[Smokeydog]

FLU419 Hydraulic 3" Water Pump Tools Unimog Military Stanley Tool Kit dive Hose | eBay

FLU419 Stanley Hydraulic 3" Water Pump. This is a must have for your FLU419!

www.ebay.com

Often show up used on govdeals. Local fellow had one for over a year on marketplace $200 obo but just checked and no longer listed.

 

[rScotty]

FLU419 Hydraulic 3" Water Pump Tools Unimog Military Stanley Tool Kit dive Hose | eBay

FLU419 Stanley Hydraulic 3" Water Pump. This is a must have for your FLU419!

www.ebay.com

Often show up used on govdeals. Local fellow had one for over a year on marketplace $200 obo but just checked and no longer listed.

Yep. That's the right type of pump. Though that one is sort of an oddball, though it could be made to work. Those submersible pumps just never got to be popular. There are marine versions which are used for washing down tankers and as bilge pumps on big ships.

I wonder if 4wd TLBs are why we don't hear much about UniMogs anymore?

 

[Smokeydog]

Several listed with brands like Stanley or Greenly. Used by utilities to dewater underground services. Often have compatible hydraulic chainsaw, cutoff saw, hammer, etc. Definitely a safety factor over electric or gas powered for personal.

They do show up used, usually dirty out of utility vehicle sales. Getting them before they are sold as scrap the trick.

Have a soft spot for Unimogs. Got to operate a loader/backhoe version at ORNL rigged to be fully remote controlled. Experimental UXO or mine detection and recovery. Long before the current drone capabilities.

 

[leonz]

The major issue using one of these hydraulic pumps is a hydraulic oil leak
frying the tractor and polluting the water.

The HALE SUPERCHIEF floating fire pump works in 3 inches of water.
It has a 2.5 inch connection and will pump 420 gallons per minute at
50 PSI.

Right now it is $4,055.00 plus tax and freight from the folks at FELD FIRE.
The current price is 10% off.

Resistance to fluid flow creates pressure.

This HALE self priming centrifugal pump can pump water 20 feet up hill @ 50 PSIG
if that is what your major concern is.

If you are using this water to irrigate crop land using rotating gun type sprinklers
and aluminum delivery pipe you are going to need much more flow per second.
The small traveling reel type sprinklers have smaller hoses and rain guns.

Is there any reason you cannot use a portable fire pond at the upper elevation?


Please tell me more about what you think your needs are.

 

[rScotty]

The major issue using one of these hydraulic pumps is a hydraulic oil leak
frying the tractor and polluting the water.

The HALE SUPERCHIEF floating fire pump works in 3 inches of water.
It has a 2.5 inch connection and will pump 420 gallons per minute at
50 PSI.

Right now it is $4,055.00 plus tax and freight from the folks at FELD FIRE.
The current price is 10% off.

Resistance to fluid flow creates pressure.

This HALE self priming centrifugal pump can pump water 20 feet up hill @ 50 PSIG
if that is what your major concern is.

If you are using this water to irrigate crop land using rotating gun type sprinklers
and aluminum delivery pipe you are going to need much more flow per second.
The small traveling reel type sprinklers have smaller hoses and rain guns.

Is there any reason you cannot use a portable fire pond at the upper elevation?


Please tell me more about what you think your needs are.

Leonz, you raise some interesting questions.
The pump needs to pump 30 feet uphill to be usable - and then have enough pressure to run several rotating nozzles with 3/8" nozzles to cover several hundred feet.
As nice as the Hale looks, I was hoping for something with about double the SuperChief's capacity.

Local water sources here are used by a number of traditional mining and other businesses. Including a lot of irrigated agriculture. This is a larger stream and can support the use, but I do not know what the requirements are for isolating or maintaining a submersible hydraulic pump.
It may be that some amount of isolation or inspection are needed. Thanks for the input, the submersible idea definitely needs looking into before going any farther with this project.
rScotty