Stove Pipe

[Avenger]

The seasons are turning as fall quickly approaches. Time is running out for many projects, one of which is heating my shop. Last year I bought a kerosene/diesel forced air jet engine heater. It worked well, rising the temps up to a comfortable level during the depths of winter. But those heaters have a few big drawbacks: 1, the fumes are not great to breath. 2, they are noisy. and 3, everything was covered in a layer of condensation.

While the condensation was not the direct fault of the heater (it's more due to the difference in temps between outside and inside without proper insulation, vapor barriers, and airflow), it still was a problem.

My new idea and project to start soon is a pellet stove. I've considered all types of heaters ranging from wood stove to natural gas furnace. This is not a debate over which is best. I believe a pellet stove would be best suited for my budget and shop layout. Which brings me to my actual issue.

Where I would like to place the stove, near the center of the shop to heat evenly and be somewhat out of the way, requires a stove pipe to run through the roof. The walls are not suitable as that would put the stove far away from where actual works goes on. My shop has rooms on several of the exterior walls, like separate smaller shops, that are heated by built in electric heaters. Those will be replace at a later time. But I cannot vent into those spaces for obvious reasons. The only wall that is an actual exterior wall would put the stove far away. So, going back to my point, where I would like to put the stove, the roof line is about 27ft from the floor.

Pricing stove pipe, the cheapest I have found so far is $350! And that is just the pipe, no other parts like elbows or the cap, etc. This is the DuraVent 4in x 36in chimney stove pipe at $35. (30/3x$35=$350). I'm not even sure if this is the right size pipe! Do I need to step up in size to run that length?

I've looked around FB market place and craigslist for stove pipe that might work with no luck. Is this just the extreme price of getting a pellet stove in my shop? Or should I consider doing a wall vent too far away? The pellet stove I am looking at getting from a friend, is pretty much new. He is asking $600 with no pipe, but a few bags of pellets. According to my research, that is a great price! But I'm not sure I can install it! For some $350 is not that much, but for me and for this project, thats a tad over what I budgeted.

If your curious here is my over all lose budget for this project:
$600 for stove
$600 for pellets
$300 for ceiling fans
$150 for electrical

This project includes adding ceiling mounted fans to move the warm air from the ceiling to the ground below. This should also reduce the amount of condensation in the shop. Minus the stove pipe, we are looking at $1650. Already that is expensive. Adding another $350 simply sucks and SWIMBO will probably halt the project.

I welcome your thoughts and suggestions for getting this project done. Thank you!

 

[KennyG]

Stove pipe is expensive when it is double insulated. I don't have pellet stove experience, only wood stove, but the pipe only needs to be double insulated in enclosed areas. It's actually better to have single wall pipe in the inside of the occupied space since you get more heat that way. If you don't have an attic/ceiling in the shop, the only place you need double insulation is when you penetrate the roof. Probably you would want double insulation outside also to help the draft.

Sounds like life would be a lot better if the building was well sealed and insulated.

 

[Avenger]

Good to know! What kind of pipe would you use for the rest of the space then?

The shop is fairly well sealed, but poorly insulated. It has insulation on the walls behind 1/2" plywood, but it has that thin insulation mat under the roof sheeting. The 3 big doors are also not insulated. I'd like to do a proper insulation, but that really is NOT in the budget! lol.
There are a few drafty areas, like around the big doors that could use a bit more attention with sealing it up, but other than that, is fairly tight.

 

[KennyG]

Whoops! I just checked something and it looks like pellet stoves are pressurized, so regular black stove pipe may not work.

 

[ponytug]

While you can certainly run a stove pipe horizontally, you would want an outside pipe tall enough to get the stove pipe chimney above the ridge line if possible.

If your pellet stove can burn corn, and you plan to do so, you will need stainless pipe. Otherwise, yes, I believe standard stove pipe is not suitable due to the pellet stove exhaust being pressurized.

I would do a lot not to have a roof penetration. Putting the stove close to the side wall that works, and a horizontal fan or two to move air would be my choice. Ceiling fans are nice, but once the stove is on one side, fans that move the warmth from there to your work areas will be needed with, or without, ceiling fans.

Your health is certainly worth something, and SWMBO should recognize that as well. I can't say what you should replace the torpedo heater with, but, yes, I think it needs to go.

All the best,

Peter

 

[kenmac]

The installation instructions with the stove should tell you what type vent piping to use.
I have always used what the manufacture recommends

 

[5030]

I have 3 of them actually, 2 in the shop and one in the house and all pellet vent has a stainless liner with an air gap and it's twist lock.

I don't know how big your shop is nor the insulation but I can tell you, you won't be happy with a pellet stove as the BTU output, even on high is not much more than 70K btu max. Have 2 in my machine shop and it still takes a good amount of time to get comfortable and the one in the house is for supplemental heat only and I burn a corn-pellet mix in all 3. Pellets aren't cheap either. For me, corn is as it's basically free but it has to be dry and cleaned before burning and not many stoves are corn capable either.

 

[CalG]

Last winter I put in a pellet stove.

It's sitting right next to the Fisher log wood stove that has heated my house the past 36 years. Jury is not out on the new addition.

The pellet stove is vented into the masonry chimney with four inch galvanized vent pipe, about 5 feet with two 90 degree elbows. That pipe barely gets hot. It MIGHT get to 140F if the stove is on high output. Double wall pipe is a complete waste. Just not needed.
"Pressurized" is used loosely, it's a squirrel cage blower that moves the exhaust out. A few inches water column.

The neighbor has burned corn and pellets over the past 10 years. (The corn smells like pop corn and makes me hungry)
He has a horizontal run of about 20 feet to vent the stove out a cellar window. Just a piece of sheet metal with a hole in it for the pipe. Aluminum foil tape to seal it. The flue gas exits at less than 80 degrees F in winter.
Pellet stoves are NOT radiant heating appliances. They are forced hot air. Positioning of the stove is secondary to air circulation. No need for a central location. Warm air is light and easy to move ;-) You are on the right track with the ceiling fans!

The stove I have , at "idle" burn rate, which is enough to keep the chill off the unoccupied walk out basement, and help keep the upstairs living space floors comfortable, burns a bag of pellets every 24 hours.

At a sustainable high output setting, that would go to three bags per day.

Pellet stoves DON"T put out much heat. Not compared to a wheel barrow full of dry oak in the wood stove any way.

My suggestion is to go minimalist at first. Put the stove against the wall, (it needs electricity) And minimize the flue pipe. At most, take a horizontal run of any distance to a window or wall penetration that works for you.

Too much vertical pipe is going to mess with the burn air anyway.

eta

salamanders are the very worst shop heat unless the big doors are open.

Last spring I paid $220 /ton delivered. $6.50 per day. Now it's $285 + delivery

 

[geteh]

The seasons are turning as fall quickly approaches. Time is running out for many projects, one of which is heating my shop. Last year I bought a kerosene/diesel forced air jet engine heater. It worked well, rising the temps up to a comfortable level during the depths of winter. But those heaters have a few big drawbacks: 1, the fumes are not great to breath. 2, they are noisy. and 3, everything was covered in a layer of condensation.

While the condensation was not the direct fault of the heater (it's more due to the difference in temps between outside and inside without proper insulation, vapor barriers, and airflow), it still was a problem.

My new idea and project to start soon is a pellet stove. I've considered all types of heaters ranging from wood stove to natural gas furnace. This is not a debate over which is best. I believe a pellet stove would be best suited for my budget and shop layout. Which brings me to my actual issue.

Where I would like to place the stove, near the center of the shop to heat evenly and be somewhat out of the way, requires a stove pipe to run through the roof. The walls are not suitable as that would put the stove far away from where actual works goes on. My shop has rooms on several of the exterior walls, like separate smaller shops, that are heated by built in electric heaters Eastbourne to Gatwick Taxi. Those will be replace at a later time. But I cannot vent into those spaces for obvious reasons. The only wall that is an actual exterior wall would put the stove far away. So, going back to my point, where I would like to put the stove, the roof line is about 27ft from the floor.

Pricing stove pipe, the cheapest I have found so far is $350! And that is just the pipe, no other parts like elbows or the cap, etc. This is the DuraVent 4in x 36in chimney stove pipe at $35. (30/3x$35=$350). I'm not even sure if this is the right size pipe! Do I need to step up in size to run that length?

I've looked around FB market place and craigslist for stove pipe that might work with no luck. Is this just the extreme price of getting a pellet stove in my shop? Or should I consider doing a wall vent too far away? The pellet stove I am looking at getting from a friend, is pretty much new. He is asking $600 with no pipe, but a few bags of pellets. According to my research, that is a great price! But I'm not sure I can install it! For some $350 is not that much, but for me and for this project, thats a tad over what I budgeted.

If your curious here is my over all lose budget for this project:
$600 for stove
$600 for pellets
$300 for ceiling fans
$150 for electrical

This project includes adding ceiling mounted fans to move the warm air from the ceiling to the ground below. This should also reduce the amount of condensation in the shop. Minus the stove pipe, we are looking at $1650. Already that is expensive. Adding another $350 simply sucks and SWIMBO will probably halt the project.

I welcome your thoughts and suggestions for getting this project done. Thank you!

working on plumbing an Avalon Rainier I got on craigslist. It's about 17' to a cathedral ceiling with a 12:12 roof, and a local stove shop just quoted me $1200 for the whole system with single wall 22ga black pipe. This is quite a bit more than I was hoping to spend (just doodling around on the home depot site I figured about $700 for DuraVent triple wall!)

Any idea's on how to save some money here or maybe a trusty site that offers decent pipe?

 

[Avenger]

Good to know. Thank you for the responses thus far.

I figured a pellet stove would put out as much heat as a typical stick burning stove. I wanted something more, set it and forget it. Leave it run to keep the shop above freezing. The up's and down's in temps accelerate condensation, so I figured it would be best to keep it above freezing all the time. I'm not looking to make it the shop so comfortable I can work without a coat. That would be nice, but probably not practical. However, if a pellet stove cannot get there, then...?

My shop space is a 30x60, so not a small one, but not huge either.

I have natural gas to the house, I could trench over a line and maybe do a furnace or heater that way... but that would probably be more expensive.

 

[oosik]

I have State Farm insurance on my house. For the first ten years we had a wood stove. Next ten year a pellet stove. Then electric heat. Electricity is very reasonable here in the PNW.

One thing my insurance agent told me. Be certain the stove is installed according to local and state fire codes. This includes the chimney.

Any house fire caused by a stove is sure to be checked for local and state compliance by the insurance company. For that matter - the insurance company may check the installation before they write a policy.

 

[Cacinok]

Just to echo some of what others have said, chimney pipe is stupid expensive. Last year, I installed a wood stove in our 1900 sq ft basement b/c my son was living there at the time and the propane heater was costing us $600/ month to heat it. My son joined the Army halfway through the project, so I still need to add a piece or two of chimney before we run it. I kinda lost motivation when he left.
Duravent is the high end of chimney pipe, but is supposed to be the best.

 

[HawkinsHollow]

Yep! When I installed a wood stove in my house the stove cost $600 everything else cost close to $1000.

 

[Avenger]

I think I am going to go in a different direction. Thank you for all the input. I really do appreciate it. I don't think a pellet stove is the correct answer here. I think using my jet engine heater and focusing on insulation, proper vapor barriers, and then maybe something like a natural gas shop heater.

 

[CalG]

I think I am going to go in a different direction. Thank you for all the input. I really do appreciate it. I don't think a pellet stove is the correct answer here. I think using my jet engine heater and focusing on insulation, proper vapor barriers, and then maybe something like a natural gas shop heater.

Let the internet calculators do the math on how much water a direct fire, unvented heater is going to put into your shop.
I tried that once in my machine room in winter. NEVER AGAIN! The frost on the cold machines was 1/2 inch thick (or so it seemed. And when it melted, RUST!

Never again!

 

[HawkinsHollow]

I agree with you a pellet stove does not seem like the right heater for your space.
But I also agree with CalG those torpedo heaters put out a BUNCH of water. In most instances it is a little less than a 1:1 ratio, if you burn a gallon of propane you get about 0.8 gallons of water released. That is a lot of water to introduce into your unventilated space.

 

[LouNY]

I have heard that this type of heater doesn't result in as much condensation as the salamander heaters do.

Also even though many will squawk I have seen several shops heated with used forced air oil fired furnaces,

 

[ponytug]

I have heard that this type of heater doesn't result in as much condensation as the salamander heaters do.
View attachment 1209000

Also even though many will squawk I have seen several shops heated with used forced air oil fired furnaces,

The condensation is directly related to the fuel burned, though diesel (C10H12) heaters will produce a little less than natural gas (CH4), or propane (C3H8). All of the hydrogen turns into water when it burns.

For a shop, a heater that doesn't exhaust into the shop, I.e. indirect fire (wood/pellet stove or heat pump) will keep the shop drier.

All the best,

Peter

 

[KennyG]

If you will have natural gas available, look into the on line cost of something like a Goodman forced air furnace. It's a low end product but they do work and can be installed by a DIY'er. If you go high efficiency you can vent with PVC.

 

[ultrarunner]

Neighbor in damp and humid Olympia WA has a complete shop and the wood stove always fired and the shop is very dry but he is retired and in the shop 7 days each week.

He has all the wood he can use for the sawing and splitting.

He told me he couldn’t imagine not having wood and paying for electric in retirement.