Left front wheel locking up

[JamesSavage]

Odd left hand front wheel intermittent lock up on my '21 GC1723EB, about 575 hrs, and could benefit from some advice. Only really happens in cold weather after sitting overnight. If I fire up and if I work if forward and back for a few minutes it eventually let's go and works normally. No noise at all. When it's locked up it does move a degree or 3 in rotation and when it finally frees up it's sluggish for a rotation or two before it's completely normal.

Diagnosticaly, in 4wd, the Right side wheel rotates at 2x revolutions when this occurs. This tells me it's in the hub and knuckle. I pulled the oil plug over the king and bevel set and there is minuscule rotational movement there so again, outboard of that. She does have a leaky oil seal between the axle and knuckle but I visually confirmed there's still ample oil and it's still seeping. I plan to address this when I sort out the lock up issue.

Anyone have any idea what this could be? I've been dealing with this since last winter and I really can't keep ignoring it. It doesn't make sense to me that it's not making any noise like a bad bearing or tore up gear and the chances of always stopping on a bad tooth of a gear set seems impossible.

Possible water ingress that keeps freezing up and seizing up the drive? Low lube that just seems like enough?

Any ideas welcome. I'm hoping to get parts on hand before tearing into it to minimize down time. I can fix most anything but this is a new animal to me.

 

[mikester]

Look up your parts diagram sounds like a broken/damaged ring pinion gear at the wheel

 

[JamesSavage]

I've crawled the parts book extensively. The axle is on like 4 different diagrams so it's a bit of a pain. Wouldn't a bad gear be a plague in warmer weather too?

 

[Tinhack]

Pieces of gears or bearings get pulled up into works when cold. Not so much when warm or hot. I wouldn't be causing more damage running it until you get it looked at. Perhaps disengaging 4WD if you must use it.

 

[JamesSavage]

Seems odd that it only freezes up when it sits overnight in the winter but otherwise works flawlessly and has for more than a year. I reckon I'll plan to borrow another machine and tear this on down. Parts are around 2 weeks to turn them around and this could be in excess of $500 in parts depending on exactly what's actually going on. I suppose it's prudent to know what it needs first.

 

[dicktill]

Seems odd that it only freezes up when it sits overnight in the winter but otherwise works flawlessly and has for more than a year. I reckon I'll plan to borrow another machine and tear this on down. Parts are around 2 weeks to turn them around and this could be in excess of $500 in parts depending on exactly what's actually going on. I suppose it's prudent to know what it needs first.

Never torn into these parts, but it sounds suspiciously like water freezing up in there as you suggested. If you do need parts, Ryan Gillespie at Boonslick Equipment (boonslickequipment@gmail.com) has parted out a GC 1720 with just 100 hours on it and has those parts; hopefully they are the same or interchangeable.

Good luck, Dick

 

[Dmacleo]

Seems odd that it only freezes up when it sits overnight in the winter but otherwise works flawlessly and has for more than a year. I reckon I'll plan to borrow another machine and tear this on down. Parts are around 2 weeks to turn them around and this could be in excess of $500 in parts depending on exactly what's actually going on. I suppose it's prudent to know what it needs first.

not so odd if you add in temp as a factor.
up to you but if were me...do it once do it right.
gonna cost ya.
all due to a messed up fill/vent adapter on left side of axle housing.
replace everything from that fill/vent on left side onwards INCLUDING the fill/vent cap and be done with it.
cap has leaked, water in system.

edit: do NOT forget to put NEW o-ring on cap/vent. that 1$ item is prob what caused this.

 

[JamesSavage]

not so odd if you add in temp as a factor.
up to you but if were me...do it once do it right.
gonna cost ya.
all due to a messed up fill/vent adapter on left side of axle housing.
replace everything from that fill/vent on left side onwards INCLUDING the fill/vent cap and be done with it.
cap has leaked, water in system.

edit: do NOT forget to put NEW o-ring on cap/vent. that 1$ item is prob what caused this.

When you say everything I presume you mean seals and bearings. From what I can ascertain, there's no backlash to set and no real way to check it. That's to say that essentially there's little more than swapping the parts that can be done if they are damaged. Presuming it is water freezing up and after I clean the gears there's no indication of damage I would presume them good, unless you know something I don't.

I have trouble with any other theory just because of the behavior. Once it moves, 100% problem free all day. It's only stuck first thing after it sits.

I might see if I can match that oil cap's thread with something more robust. It's a lousy design. If I can find a better cap I might loctite the threads for a more robust seal.

 

[irvingj]

I'm going with water, too. Put it inside where it's warm (and give it plenty of time to warm up), drain the axle fluid. Bet you'll find water in it.

 

[Dmacleo]

When you say everything I presume you mean seals and bearings. From what I can ascertain, there's no backlash to set and no real way to check it. That's to say that essentially there's little more than swapping the parts that can be done if they are damaged. Presuming it is water freezing up and after I clean the gears there's no indication of damage I would presume them good, unless you know something I don't.

I have trouble with any other theory just because of the behavior. Once it moves, 100% problem free all day. It's only stuck first thing after it sits.

I might see if I can match that oil cap's thread with something more robust. It's a lousy design. If I can find a better cap I might loctite the threads for a more robust seal.

this is just me being me but I would pull the 4 bolts holding the vertical stub shaft off and work from there. that is only 1 cheap gasket. top of the stub shaft is prob ok, no need to get into specific gravity of water vs hydraulic (which is whats there) oil.
your issues will start at the bottom of that vertical stub shaft and go horizontal from there to include bearings and seals.
having the whole vertical and horizontal stub shafts on a bench in front of you will be easier for you.
anyways thats my thoughts here. as well as only way water got in was from a bad oring on fill/vent cap. you're gonna spend a LOT of money, buy a new fill/vent cap.

 

[WranglerX]

IF and I say IF you want know more about what's in front axle.... Go look at this link..... Yeah I know it's for a GC23XX, BUT it is so very similar to a GC17XX it will scare you.....just go to link and scroll down to "May 2016 - Replace Axle Steering Spindle Oil Seal".....

Massey Ferguson GC2310 TLB Repair

Picture and narrative essay to repair a 2006 Massey Ferguson GC2310

www.increa.com

 

[Harry in Ky]

As has been stated, It's up to you what to do next. If someone brought this problem to me, I would do this. Remove the tire and wheel, raise that side up high enough to keep oil in the center tube from draining into the spindle/knuckle unit. Drain the unit and remove the stub axle and bull gear assembly. Then everything is pretty much out in view. If it only a matter of water in there, you can either take your chances with just blowing out as much as you can, or remove the plug at the bottom and rinse it all out. Then you can get a better idea of the condition of the bearing. Remember the area below the lower spindle shaft bearing is where all the crap settles and collects over time. I've seen more than one failure with that bearing on other makes and models of tractors due to nasty oil. If the bearing looks and feels good, install a new plug, put it all back together and move on. You're out the price of the plug, some oil, and your time.

 

[SPYDERLK]

I think its a bearing cage gone bad and the balls get bunched up when it sits. I am surprised it totally clears up when you get it to rotate.

 

[JamesSavage]

Any way I shake it, the axle to knuckle seal is bad so I know it's coming apart. For me this discussion has been more a matter of thoughtful opinions on what I should have on hand for the freeze up issue. I'm definitely pulling it off and getting to the source of the problem and inspecting what's no longer good and replacing. My hope was to have everything on hand but that seems like a gamble until I really know what the totality of the problem is.

I did note on the parts schematics that there's a rubber plug under the vertical shaft and bearing in that knuckle. I imagine pulling that will produce some water to at least confirm that it's there being the apparent low point.

Thus far it's a cheap fix but we'll see where it lands. The axle seal and bearings total about $150 per side. The question is what else is bad but, I really won't know until I get it open.

 

[WranglerX]

Most of the work will just require simple tools (sockets-end wrenches) BUT you will need really good "Snap Ring" pliers to get lower section off and back on vertical shaft.. After several hours of frustration and round trip to autoparts and dropping $30 it only took 18 seconds to get snap ring back on with new pliers....

Snap Ring from hell...

 

[JamesSavage]

Did the deep dive into the tear down link into the 2300 and ordered parts for the seal and bearing replacement. Not scared yet. For context I've rebuilt everything from the 1978 SB 350 in my Vette to a 3/4 ton Ford rear diff, including ring and pinion, shimming, setting backlash, etc. Tools and know how aren't a barrier.

The 1723 LOOKS like a 1 piece seal at the knuckle, which seems odd. One of the bearings at that joint has been superceded and there's a bit of lateral slop not evident on the right side. I'm guessing that the bearing caused the seal failure and I should plan the other side for spring.

Once I have those parts I'll pull that whole knuckle off and see what else is going on. Hoping there's no other issues and that it's just ice jamming up the gears. If anything I'm thinking I might find some additional bearing damage.

 

[Dmacleo]

3/4 ton Ford rear diff,


nothing is as fun as doing a ford 7.5 with the crush sleeve on pinion, tq it to 300ft lbs then measure rotating tq.
well screw me....

 

[WranglerX]

Did the deep dive into the tear down link into the 2300 and ordered parts for the seal and bearing replacement. Not scared yet. For context I've rebuilt everything from the 1978 SB 350 in my Vette to a 3/4 ton Ford rear diff, including ring and pinion, shimming, setting backlash, etc. Tools and know how aren't a barrier.

The 1723 LOOKS like a 1 piece seal at the knuckle, which seems odd. One of the bearings at that joint has been superceded and there's a bit of lateral slop not evident on the right side. I'm guessing that the bearing caused the seal failure and I should plan the other side for spring.

Once I have those parts I'll pull that whole knuckle off and see what else is going on. Hoping there's no other issues and that it's just ice jamming up the gears. If anything I'm thinking I might find some additional bearing damage.

Your seal part number is 4265156m91 which is same part number as GC1705-20 and is a two piece seal....

 

[bgr]

Before starting any teardown. I would want to confirm what the problem is for sure.

Next time the wheel won't turn in cold weather, do not break it loose. Stop and apply a heater to the bottom of the wheel hub/axle end on that side., Don't blast it with heat, just warm it up gradually for 10 or 15 minutes. If the wheel turns OK after that, you have water in the bottom of the knuckle and it is freezing and locking up the gear. (You are unlikely to have any other damage as the knuckle gears and bearing are large and heavy duty, but if heating does not free up the wheel and get water out of the knuckle, then you may have to look for other damaged parts.)

There is a drain plug on the bottom of the knuckle. Pull that while warm and you should get water out if that is the problem. After the water flowing out stops and the oil starts flowing, look at the oil coming out. If it is a white foamy mix of oil and water let it all drain out. Next you will have to look through the axle fill plug hole on the center housing and and see if the oil in the center differential housing is the same white foam there and pull the drain plug on the right axle knuckle and see what comes out. If the oil in the center diff and the oil draining on the right side is clear and not watery, you can put that plug back in and then refill the axle at the center fill plug and replace the Oring on the fill plug. If the oil in either center diff or RH knuckle is watery, let all drain out of the RH knuckle and then refill completely.

After the oil is changed, try the machine for a month or so and see if the problem re-occurs. I don't think you will have any other damage. You have moved the tractor often enough so water will not be sitting on the gears and bearings in the hub long enough to damage them and they are pretty big and heavy duty for the load which is put on them. If you have water intrusion again or the oil leak gets too bad, replace the knuckle seal. When you do that, you will have a chance to look at the other parts and make sure they are OK.

I run a Kubota with the same type of knuckles and I have replaced knuckle seals on both sides but never had a water intrusion problem like yours. To get water past the knuckle seal takes a lot. Did you ever use your tractor and submerge the LF wheel and knuckle under water? That is the only way I can think of to get that much water in.

Whatever you do, it is worth testing to see if frozen water in the hub is what is locking it up. It is likely to do that because the water will separate out of the oil, settle to the bottom of the knuckle and freeze into a solid block. That would be enough to stop the gear from turning. Gear damage would cause problems at all temperatures.

 

[JamesSavage]

Minor update: it's about 30 out but expected to warm into the 50s. Took the wheel off and pulled the drain. I can see the ice. Hoping the day's warmth thaws it out and I get a good confirmation via ample water draining out. I might need to use this little beast to push slush so if it checks out, I'll relube it and put it back to work while I wait for seals and bearings.