Future of HVAC and industry supply issues.

[Sigarms]

Please see the enclosed 2003 brochure and 2001 Specifications - the unit is indoors in a utility room.

This has a variable speed, "constant airflow" blower motor.
It is noticeable how the motor rpm picks up if the air flow is restricted by partially clogged air filter for example.

Back around 2003, the only term guys really used was Variable speed, which was for a variable speed constant airflow in todays terms.

Variable speed constant torque "back then" is what use to be call a X-13 motor LOL

Issue is when manufacturers list "variable speed" for the blower in todays times, need to determine constant torque or constant airflow. Generally when using zone dampers in duct work, without using a proprietary t stat and zoning system from the manufacturer of the equipment you're using, you can have issues using a variable speed constant airflow blower motor due to how the constant airflow blower motor will react to dampers closing (increasing the static pressure).

From what I see, Climeatemaster no longer offers a twin rotary compressor.

 

[newbury]

Reminds me what I heard long time ago:
"When dealing with a low bidder, you need to add $$ due to the risk you are taking"

Good quote, applies for most things.
I just had a unit replaced in Fulton, Mississippi. Only two firms "local". Paid what I consider big bucks because they are proven and reliable.

 

[arto98607]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

From what I see, Climeatemaster no longer offers a twin rotary compressor.

Yes 20 years is a long time in electronics.

ClimateMaster and WaterFurnace both have residential units with variable speed compressor, fan and ground loop circulating pumps.

Not sure who else is in that market, but I hope there are others with similar offerings?

 

[Sigarms]

Yes 20 years is a long time in electronics.

ClimateMaster and WaterFurnace both have residential units with variable speed compressor, fan and ground loop circulating pumps.

Not sure who else is in that market, but I hope there are others with similar offerings?

Only other two I can think of is GeoComfort and Bosch (Bosch bought out Florida Heat Pump a while ago).

Geo kind of crashed in our area some time ago when the big credits went away.

 

[Camofurever1]

A Hybrid system is nothing more than a dual fuel system. "Hybrid" is a catchy marketing name from the manufacturer. No different than "Puron" or "Hyperheat"...

I installed a duel duel fuel system in my attic about 18 years ago. Job is a major PITA, and since the system is R22, although I may get 3 or 4 more years out of the R22 system, rather buy a R410A now, and perhaps install some springtime or fall when the attic temp is more conducive to working long hours during the day.

BTY, the ROI at least in my area isn't worth buying a hybrid / dual fuel system if your on natural gas, but when you're on LP, it's an absolute no brainer at least in my area where LP is around $3 per gallon. Needless to say, I'm on LP.

That said, a hybrid / dual fuel could be worth it for LP in my area with a inverter compressor on the heat pump, but with a 100% heating capacity down to 5 OAT with some of these outdoor units, reality is I'm buying the furnace pretty much for a blower only because I'll never run the gas furnace, and for the price point, straight heat pump would be a lot less money on my end with a inverter compressor with high heat.

Yep, I live in the rural sticks of Tennessee and the closest NG line is at least a mile away. I have a 500 gallon underground LP tank. Our old unit would burn through almost 800 gallons per heating season (2 fills per season). The duel fuel/hybrid system burns around 200 gallons per heating season. We fill the tank every other year during the summer when LP is around 2.39/gal. We have a clothes dryer and a cooktop on gas. They don't put much of a demand on the LP reserves. Water heater is electric.

 

[arto98607]

That was lot of LP in a year.

I understand it was not the biggest user, but if my clothes dryer worked on LP I would invest in a solar powered one in a hurry!

 

[Sigarms]

That is a lot of LP in a year.

I understand it's not the biggest user, but if my clothes dryer worked on LP I would invest in a solar powered one in a hurry!





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When we bought the house, we had 3 gas AC systems. First dual fuel system in the attic saved at least 30% of LP for heat.

500 gallon tank for 3K square feet home when we first moved here using 2 tanks in the winter with some left over for spring summer for heating. Now, we only get 1.5 deliveries a year.

We went to a tankless water heater 2 years ago which is saving more money now.

Issue is at least with our LP company, they seem to play pricing games with the less LP you use.

 

[Camofurever1]

When we bought the house, we had 3 gas AC systems. First dual fuel system in the attic saved at least 30% of LP for heat.

500 gallon tank for 3K square feet home when we first moved here using 2 tanks in the winter with some left over for spring summer for heating. Now, we only get 1.5 deliveries a year.

We went to a tankless water heater 2 years ago which is saving more money now.

Issue is at least with our LP company, they seem to play pricing games with the less LP you use.

That is why we wait until mid summer to refill our tank. LP prices are low. They gouge you if they come out and refill in the winter. They want us on the "auto refill program". Screw that. They are just collecting extra service charges and delivery fees. We only use around 200 gallons per heating season for a 1500 Sq. Ft. house that is very well insulated and all of the doors and windows are e-glass. Our electric bill yearly average is around $100.00/ month. Our climate is probably similar to yours. We are in middle Tennessee. Our underground tank is going on 14 years old. I figure at around 20 years, i'll have to replace it. I think we paid $2500.00 for the tank 14 years ago. I don't even want to guess what a new tank will cost in another 6 years.

 

[Sigarms]

That is why we wait until mid summer to refill our tank. LP prices are low.

I can assure you, my wife watches LP pricing like a hawk

The biggest issue was when buying this house, first house with a LP tank on the premisses we've owned. The gas company supplied the tank, and the original homeowner decided to plant shrubs around the 500 gallon tank so you can see it. Worked great, you can't see the tank, but a major pain in the butt to remove the tank. THEN you get into the removal fees by the gas company.

When buying a new home, supplying your own tank and owning it is the only way to go from our experience after this home.

 

[2manyrocks]

We were on LP until NG became available a few years ago. The best LP pricing I could find was to pre-buy for the entire year during the summer months. The worse pricing was to run out and have to get filled in January without having locked in prices for the year.

 

[ultrarunner]

I’ve been thinking about the future of HVAC and the supply issues we’ve been facing lately. The industry seems to be in a pickle with all these delays and shortages. I believe a shift towards more energy-efficient systems is on the horizon. People are more conscious about their energy use, which is excellent!

Yes if it really is a net gain.

I say this looking at my third new Heat Pump system in 21 years… ouch!

I then think back to friends with central air installed in the 80’s and still very reliable.

 

[Sigarms]

I never in a million years would have thought that a brand new unitary equipment refrigerant being used by most of the manufacturers sold in the USA would ever cost more per lb than R22.

 

[ultrarunner]

Time for propane refrigerant?

7 years ago I bought a sub $200 stand alone ice maker for the clinic nurse’s station not expecting much.

It was Costco and since my 6k ice machine was again down I jumped on the cheap Costco ice maker…

It uses propane and has never run out of ice bag ice.

 

[Sigarms]

Time for propane refrigerant?

7 years ago I bought a sub $200 stand alone ice maker for the clinic nurse’s station not expecting much.

It was Costco and since my 6k ice machine was again down I jumped on the cheap Costco ice maker…

It uses propane and has never run out of ice bag ice.

The industry was crapping bricks with the current selection of "mild flammable" new refrigerants that hit the market the last year coming into this year

Somewhere here I believe, I pointed on propane has been used for years by refrigeration guys.

Seriously, there is a shortage nationally on the new refrigerant due to various reasons (excuses a lot of guys call them LOL).

 

[arto98607]

Not trying to change the subject - this kind of fits in to OP's "Future of HVAC" topic I hope.


Anyone here with information or personal experience regarding the longevity of variable speed compressor ground source heat-pumps?

Our ground source heat-pump has served us well for many many years and hopefully will many more.

I like the variable speed compressor idea, and both ClimateMaster and WaterFurnace are offering them but not sure of any other brands?

Just curious of their longevity.

 

[ultrarunner]

Weekend Work

Air Handler Replacement for operating rooms…

New unit uses already obsolete 410 refrigerant…

The old unit has been in service 30 years 24/7 with a Baldor motor only turned off for belt changes.

Service consisted of a shot of bearing grease every 30 days for 30 years… made in USA

 

[ultrarunner]

Still running about a dozen 1995 Carrier Gas Packs on the roof…

Just replaced a 5 ton with a Bryant as Bryant was available… remove and replace $9500

 

[ultrarunner]

Daikin… I have one package unit on the roof and it’s the newest not counting the Bryant recent install…

Maybe I got a bad one but it was advertised as a direct Carrier replacement but it was not… had leaking coil and bad compressor under warranty but took months to get the coil from
Asia.

Staff reported a odd sound last week which I traced to the Daikin

Bad blower shaft bearing the cause.

Note the shaft is 1” dia. and the groove pictured worn into the shaft is from the bad bearing.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

I’m looking at replacing 18 Carrier rooftop gas packs plus a 40 ton 100% outside air buildup system all circa 1995

The costs are staggering as are the lead times.

It use to be simple but with refrigerant mandates and energy standards and the move away from any gas comfort heating it seems the future is Heat Pumps…

I have 3 York Heat pumps that were tenant installed and maintained but compared to the old Carrier Gas Packs the Heat Pumps have been anything but reliable and required much larger circuits to handle increased electricity demand.

Anyone care to venture as to smart navigating the future of HVAC?

I've had very good experience with the Mitsubishi Hyper Heat series. My single bit of advice is to always install silicon gaskets in the flare junctions as doing so greatly reduces the chances of leaks.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07M81F1BD?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_10&th=1

 

[KennyG]

Just had to have some old units repaired and recharged at our church. R-22 was billed at about $500 per lb for less than 2 lbs, $225 per pound for over 2 lbs. Are we headed to a point where A/C is not affordable.