dumb question about HST

[LouNY]

Thanks for your reply SR.

Your last comment about creep gears and stump grinding caught my eye. I've been wondering about that very thing.

I have two geared tractors (both 8-speeds), and although I've never used a PTO powered stump grinder, I would guess that low range, low gear in my tractors isn't quite enough of a creep to run a "pull behind" stump grinder (without a lot of clutch work).

I do plan to purchase a stump grinder with next tractor purchase and the "pull behind" would save me a few $$$ over the "hydraulic swing" if it would work.

If I go with another geared tractor, I'm leaning towards TYM/Branson 5520R (16 speed!) or 5835 (12 speed).

Wondering if either of those tractors can move slowly enough in low gear to use the "pull behind" stump grinder?

Only if it has a "creeper" range in addition to the normal Hi Med Lo.

 

[jyoutz]

Thanks for the many informative replies.

Good to read that HST tractors do in fact use gears to drive PTO.

The lower PTO rating for HST not being due to how the PTO is driven, but instead is the result of the increased overhead of HST makes sense, but I hadn't thought of that.

Of course there are some high HP stationary PTO implements that are run with range . I guess that in that case, HP would be the same Unfortunatelybetween gear and HST.

Just buy a tractor with enough hp and don’t worry about a few reduced pto hp with a HST.

 

[skid mark]

Only if it has a "creeper" range in addition to the normal Hi Med Lo.

10-4. Since I've not read anything about a creeper gear on those two tractors, I guess it's time to cue the sad trombone: wah, wah, waaahhhhh.....

 

[skid mark]

Just buy a tractor with enough hp and don’t worry about a few reduced pto hp with a HST.

Yes, good advice, but...

I really, really, really want to buy a tractor with that good old mechanical injected Kukje/TYM engine. That engine tops out at 55 or 58hp. I wonder if I might end up down on power and/or have problems with HST running hot.

 

[jyoutz]

Yes, good advice, but...

I really, really, really want to buy a tractor with that good old mechanical injected Kukje/TYM engine. That engine tops out at 55 or 58hp. I wonder if I might end up down on power and/or have problems with HST running hot.

I don’t know why that would be an issue. My MX6000 has 63 gross hp and pto hp of 52 hp. Never had an issue with the HST running hot after running a 6’ cutter for hours.

 

[skid mark]

I don’t know why that would be an issue. My MX6000 has 63 gross hp and pto hp of 52 hp. Never had an issue with the HST running hot after running a 6’ cutter for hours.

My original plan was to use new tractor to replace an old Case/IH that I run a 7' finish mower with. Any config of Branson/TYM with "Kukje" engine would run that mower with ease...

But as I've been looking online, I've come across others that have run 12' and 15' batwing mowers behind these same "Kukje" tractors!!!

So that's got me thinking... If those other guys can run 12' and 15' mowers behind their tractors, then surely I can use a similar tractor to pull my Rhino Turbo 120, which is a dual spindle, ten footer.

I'm currently pulling that mower behind a JD 4020.

The old farm tractor pulls the Rhino mower easily, but the combo of the Rhino mower (3.5K lbs) and the 4020 (11K lbs) is too much for my trailer, so I can't use that combo on any property more than a mile or two from home.

But if I could pull the Rhino behind one of the "Kukje" powered tractors (half the weight of the 4020), I would be fine.

That would really be a great option.

But according to the specs, any Kukje powered tractor would be below the minimum hp rating (55hp at PTO) for the Rhino mower.

One weird thing is that the minimum hp for Woods 12' batwing is 35hp and their 15' batwing is 45hp. Given that, I wonder, why does my 10' Rhino require 55hp???

I remember that the the JD salesman I ordered the mower from said that the Rhino was a "commercial" mower (with heavier than normal gearboxes?), but still...

So I'm wondering if my best chance of running that large-ish mower behind an "under powered" tractor would be to stick with gears?

(or stick with the 4020?)

 

[K5lwq]

The 4020 is probably the best tractor JD ever made and could be the best overall. I would not be replacing that tractor.

 

[skid mark]

The 4020 is probably the best tractor JD ever made and could be the best overall. I would not be replacing that tractor.

Yeah, thanks. I do like the 4020, and will be keeping it. It'd just be nice to also be able to pull the Rhino mower behind the smaller tractor so I could trailer it more easily.

In line with this thread on HST vs gears, I do have to admit that I do prefer a traditional 'H' pattern gear shifter and a separate transfer case lever instead of the JD single lever maze of gears!

 

[skid mark]

Speaking of the 4020 (and other JD tractors of that era), I've always thought it was pretty cool that the classic Nelson "rain train" sprinkler was obviously styled based on those JD tractors:

Note the overhanging "brow" at the front end, followed by the looooong arched hood with the little bump at the operator's station to house the gauges. On the sides, the front part is solid (where the fuel tank sits), followed by the vertical grills (radiator vents) and then the engine bay. Just like those old JDs!

 

[ptsg]

Yeah, thanks. I do like the 4020, and will be keeping it. It'd just be nice to also be able to pull the Rhino mower behind the smaller tractor so I could trailer it more easily.

In line with this thread on HST vs gears, I do have to admit that I do prefer a traditional 'H' pattern gear shifter and a separate transfer case lever instead of the JD single lever maze of gears!

The 5520R you're looking at provides just that. H pattern synchronized gears on the main 1st to 4th gears, and H pattern for the range gears, A to D. Synchronized shuttle shift lever as well.

Honestly, these things are so easy to use and somehow gets such a bad reputation based on mostly myths spread all over the internet. You get much a more capable tractor too.

The only size of tractor could possibly consider being HST, would be those SCUTs, as most of them don't have independent PTO and the HST will make for it. That's about it.

I work my tractor on tight places, with loads and loads of direction changes. Just a quick clutch in as you move the shuttle lever and clutch out, it's done. Never once had feel "I wish I went with HST".

 

[4570Man]

The 5520R you're looking at provides just that. H pattern synchronized gears on the main 1st to 4th gears, and H pattern for the range gears, A to D. Synchronized shuttle shift lever as well.

Honestly, these things are so easy to use and somehow gets such a bad reputation based on mostly myths spread all over the internet. You get much a more capable tractor too.

The only size of tractor could possibly consider being HST, would be those SCUTs, as most of them don't have independent PTO and the HST will make for it. That's about it.

I work my tractor on tight places, with loads and loads of direction changes. Just a quick clutch in as you move the shuttle lever and clutch out, it's done. Never once had feel "I wish I went with HST".

Have you used a HST tractor for at least a couple hours more than just across the dealers lot?

 

[ptsg]

Have you used a HST tractor for at least a couple hours more than just across the dealers lot?

To answer your question, no. Don't really have to. I've seen plenty of what those can do, or really can't.

Hardly any dealers stock HST tractors here, because they're so capable, right? Expats are the ones who buy the very few that get sold here and there, mostly SCUTs, like the Solis H26 and Farmtrac FT26H.

The reality is, if those were as good and capable as a tractor with gear transmission, I would see them all over the country. Yet, that doesn't happen, at all.

People need capable tractors. Having a tractor falling on its face on the slightest of hills with it's own weight, is not an option, let alone pulling a trailer. Like I said in the other post, these shuttle shift transmissions are just so nice, easy and simple to use, it's a no brainer.

 

[oldnslo]

A possible problem with HST on hills is controlling load or stopping going down hill. With HST you are decreasing the pump displacement to go slower or like gear you can idle engine down to provide engine braking - hydrostatic braking. Most HST have wheel brake pedals on same side of tractor as HST pedal so hard to use both at same time to stop.

Climbing a hill with HST on cruise will slow more than gear. How much depends on quality of HST components.

For pulling loads down the road I would probably choose gear vs HST especially if heavy loads on hills.

 

[ning]

I have a TYM T654. 24 forward and 24 reverse gears. In creep it will run at 1/4 mile an hour at 540 pto speed/RPM. I don't have a stump grinder but I think it would handle on no problem. The only time I ever run in creep is when hooking up to implements. It's a clutch tractor mostly used for plowing, discing and pulling a bat wing shredder.

1/4 mi an hour = about 4½" per second
I've never used a stump grinder but I'm guessing that's still too fast for continual motion on one.

 

[skid mark]

I am so glad that I re-joined this list and asked some questions.

I've owned my current tractors for 20+ years. My newest tractor is 40 years old. I first joined the list in 2002, but I left the list in 2005 and have remained largely clueless about HST tractors that have (it seems to me) greatly increased in popularity.

On the suggestion of a buddy, I was thinking about going HST on my (first ever!) new tractor purchase.

But after reading here (and other sites) about performance issues of HST when pressed to and beyond their rated performance capabilities, I did some more searching, and found this objective test of two identical tractors (except one was geared and the other HST):

WOW. I thought that HST performance lagged behind gear by "a few percent". While that may be true in general, it certainly doesn't appear to be the case under extreme conditions.

Very surprised that gear developed 3X the pulling force of HST.

And since the gear tractor spun (all four) tires, we don't know what the maximum pulling force would have been with better traction since the geared tractor lost traction (the old coefficient of dynamic friction < coefficient of static friction rule). With better traction, what would the pulling force difference be? 4X? 5X?

And the topper was the geared tractor besting HST by 50% when geared tractor was put in high gear.

Thanks to many on this list, I think I can answer my question about "is HST a good option for me".

Thanks again.

 

[Blue Mule]

We went from a 30 HP gear drive New Holland to a 40 HP HST New Holland. Have been using it for 3 years or more now. Here's my experience:

- HST sucks for transport (driving the tractor to a new location). It will not climb steep hills unless I'm in low or medium range on the transmission, and even in medium it'll struggle some if I have the FEL and an implement on at the same time. The gear drive tractor would pull up any hill in nearly any gear. This leads me to believe that plowing a field with a HST tractor would be a very slow operation. And it also means high range on the HST is useless in most conditions.

- Location of pedals is critical. Some brands are idiots and put the brake and HST controls on the same side. Do not buy from those brands. Some brands use a "treadle" instead of individual forward and reverse pedals. I hate those also. My New Holland has independent forward reverse on the right, and independent left/right brake on the left. That's much safer and much more "user friendly".

- Cruise control is a must. Some brands do not include cruise control standard on HST models. New Holland did, and I am thankful.

- After using the HST tractor for a few years I would never go back to gear drive. Loader work, grading work, and all work that requires slow finesse is lightyears easier and safer with HST. I absolutely love it. I don't plow fields with it, so HST is the way to go for me.

Unrelated side note: My new tractor uses a turbo to get the 40 HP rating. When at PTO RPM (mowing, etc.) the turbo engines will drink diesel fuel like they've got a bad habit. Keep that in mind. Between feeding that engine enough fuel to keep up with the airflow from the turbo, and the fact that the hydrostat consumes a lot of horsepower, you're going to need to keep diesel fuel on hand. When I'm not doing PTO work I run the engine at 1700 RPM and then it's fairly efficient.

 

[4570Man]

I am so glad that I re-joined this list and asked some questions.

I've owned my current tractors for 20+ years. My newest tractor is 40 years old. I first joined the list in 2002, but I left the list in 2005 and have remained largely clueless about HST tractors that have (it seems to me) greatly increased in popularity.

On the suggestion of a buddy, I was thinking about going HST on my (first ever!) new tractor purchase.

But after reading here (and other sites) about performance issues of HST when pressed to and beyond their rated performance capabilities, I did some more searching, and found this objective test of two identical tractors (except one was geared and the other HST):

WOW. I thought that HST performance lagged behind gear by "a few percent". While that may be true in general, it certainly doesn't appear to be the case under extreme conditions.

Very surprised that gear developed 3X the pulling force of HST.

And since the gear tractor spun (all four) tires, we don't know what the maximum pulling force would have been with better traction since the geared tractor lost traction (the old coefficient of dynamic friction &lt; coefficient of static friction rule). With better traction, what would the pulling force difference be? 4X? 5x?

And the topper was the geared tractor besting HST by 50% when geared tractor was in high gear and HST tractor was in low.

Thanks to many on this list, I think I can answer my question about "is HST a good option for me".

Thanks again.

The gear drive was tested in 5th gear out of 8 where the HST was never tested in medium range. Second the gear tractor was bucking and jerking which would dramatically skew its test. If you tested the HST in medium range and you had a tire inline of the scale to help absorb bouncing you would have nearly equal results. The gear drive will deliver more power to the ground. If the contest was dragging a plow across a field the gear drive will definitely win. If you’re thinking you’re going to chain up a 3 times bigger log and drag out of the woods with the gear drive that’s just not going to happen.

 

[skid mark]

If you tested the HST in medium range...

I've never owned (or used) an HST tractor, so I have to ask this question:

If you're going to "road" your tractor, do you start out in high range, or do you (depending on the load behind you) start in low , speed up, then shift on the fly into medium, speed up more, then shift on the fly into high?

Is that even possible?

If not, then how well a tractor starts out in high range under load seems like a reasonable question.

I'll also state the obvious that the geared tractor would have more torque in medium and low also.

 

[4570Man]

I've never owned (or used) an HST tractor, so I have to ask this question:

If you're going to "road" your tractor, do you start out in high range, or do you (depending on the load behind you) start in low , speed up, then shift on the fly into medium, speed up more, then shift on the fly into high?

Is that even possible?

If not, then how well a tractor starts out in high range under load seems like a reasonable question.

I'll also state the obvious that the geared tractor would have more torque in medium and low also.

The HST gearbox is more comparable to putting a pickup transfer case in low range. Maybe if you liked to life dangerously you could time the shift and do it moving but it’s not designed to do that. You’re supposed to bring the tractor to a complete stop and put the tractor in its desired range and start out from there. The Grand series Kubotas have a 6 speed HST vs the more standard 3 speed and you actually can shift those moving but that’s not what was tested. Sure the geared tractor will make more torque in low range, a lot more but it was sitting there spinning its wheels in 5th gear. What are you going to do with that extra torque when you’re just spinning out? If you put the HST tractor in lower range it would be spinning out right beside it. If you were pulling wagons up the road a gear trans is probably better but how many people are pulling wagons up the road with tractors that small anyway? Larger farm tractors aren’t HST for good reasons but how many small tractors are pulling plows anyway?

 

[skid mark]

What are you going to do with that extra torque when you’re just spinning out?

If I had a tractor hitched to the back, the extra weight would probably prevent tires from spinning (especially so on pavement), so the extra torque would be used to accelerate the load.

My tractors are set up to pull both bumper and gooseneck trailers from the FEL and 3-pt and I do use them for this purpose regularly.