Natural gas?

[Gem99ultra]

We were spoiled with the advantages of having natural gas back in the 'Big City'. Now we're stuck with sutty propane slowly making our walls and ceilings turn oily yellow/brown/black.

 

[dodge man]

I never thought we had a soot problem with LP. Is your furnace ok?

When we switched from LP to geo they just came a got the tank, it didn’t cost me a thing. I do still have a smaller LP tank for heating my shop.

 

[CH4Ohio]

We were spoiled with the advantages of having natural gas back in the 'Big City'. Now we're stuck with sutty propane slowly making our walls and ceilings turn oily yellow/brown/black.

Propane burns just as cleanly as NG. Both produce exactly the same by-products with proper combustion. Your appliances must be out of adjustment or you have a problem with inadequate combustion/ventilation air.

With today’s ODS safeties and pressure switches it’s unusual to see “sooting”. Propane and NG appliances are essentially identical. You shouldn’t see any difference in how they operate.

 

[phantom309]

This thread makes me feel like I'm in a bizarro world where nothing makes sense. (I'm sure that this is just due to it being contrary to my own experience)

Few people own their own propane tank. For most people it really doesn't make much sense to buy their own tank.

Why is that? I have no idea what it costs to rent a tank, but IMO, renting *anything* should be limited to things you only need for the short term. I do not know anybody that rents their propane tank.

My second tank (a 30 year old "refurb" that looks like new) that I bought seven years ago cost a few hundred dollars. What does it cost to rent?

It shouldn't be a surprise that one company won't fill another company's tank.

Why would a company that is in the business of selling propane not want to sell propane to anybody/everybody?

I would understand if they offer a discount rate for those that rent from them as a way to incentivize the long-term cash cow of tank rental, but no sale at all?

Is the no-sale thing a "gentleman's agreement" between the local propane dealers to limit competition? Do renters sign contracts to only buy from the one dealer?

 

[arto98607]

Maybe it’s different in your location, but anything electric, especially heating is substantially more expensive to operate than a NG appliance. NG heating is very cheap, electric heat pumps are not cheap to operate.

All heatpumps are not equal!

Geothermal heatpumps are not cheap to buy or install (unless the ground loop or equivalent is already in place) but they are very economical to operate, and make perfect sense for anyone needing heating/AC replacement, and they are planning for the long run.

I am not talking about people who move every few years or so due to work etc.

It can also easily preheat water, if a large "solar" type water tank (80 gallons) is hooked up to it's "hot water generator", and is piped up in series with the regular water heater.

Hour meters on two stage 5 ton geothermal heatpump indicate that it operates on stage 1. 90% of the time, while heating or cooling 3000 sq-ft house.
The HP uses 2.3 kW when running on stage 1.

I would call our climate moderate, hot & bone dry summers, wet & sometimes cold (down to 2 or 3*F) and very windy winters.

 

[ultrarunner]

Few people own their own propane tank. For most people it really doesn't make much sense to buy their own tank.

It shouldn't be a surprise that one company won't fill another company's tank.

I don't really understand the angst around the tank . . . Just call them and ask them to take their tank out if it's a problem.

To your original post -- yes, obviously, install the NG. You don't want to use a heat pump with NG as a backup. More efficient to install the standard high efficiency NG furnace and a central AC system. Add water heating (tankless or not) to the NG load if you can.

The 500 gallon tank at the cabin had a buyout clause going back to 1965.

The rental was free with minimum annual purchase so all was ok…

The small local company changed many times and back in the 2000’s the rental became very expensive as the minimum was increased…

I remember the buyout but the current owner said no such thing.

Good thing I had the original documents and executed the $200 buyout with the company kicking all the way.

In 2019 new owners and started billing for rental again so had to pull out the file to prove we owned it…

Are these National companies incompetent or crooks?

 

[ponytug]

Yeah; our 75g State Select was put in in '96, and leaked in '22. I'd say I got my money's worth from it.
Only issue I ever had with it was a solenoid which disabled fuel (propane) flow unless the power vent was running would stick occasionally in the last ten years and I couldn't find a replacement... but I didn't try very hard because I found that a light tap on it would make it work for a few more weeks lol

FWIW, next time a quick rinse with carb cleaner and cycling the valve usually works to restore the solenoid to normal. Propane has heavier hydrocarbons in it and in my experience over time they can build up on the inside of pipes and valves.

As I previously mentioned, the tank is "hidden" by bush and trees intentionally planted around the tank by the previous owner.

Major PITA to remove, and the cost to remove the tank was stupid by the LP company because I can only guess that they don't want to lose you as a customer.

Could outright buy a 500 gallon for less than 1/2 of what it costs to remove it.

The angst around the LP company who owns the tank is that the LP company has you by the gonads... If you call someone else to remove it, generally they won't touch it because you don't own it and if the LP company finds the tank removed, they can charge you anything they want for you to return it or charge you anything they want for it if it's "missing".

Yes, it is one of the many games propane companies play. Around here, if you ask the newco will come out with a partially filled tank, and set it up for use while you drain oldco's tank down. When oldco's tank is empty, it is pretty easy to move a propane tank. Newco then drops their tank on the old location.

Oldco has been known to not find the time to get their rental tank back. One member here got tired of the run around and told their company he was moving the tank toward the gate and on to the street if they didn't come by and get it.

This thread makes me feel like I'm in a bizarro world where nothing makes sense. (I'm sure that this is just due to it being contrary to my own experience)



Why is that? I have no idea what it costs to rent a tank, but IMO, renting *anything* should be limited to things you only need for the short term. I do not know anybody that rents their propane tank.

My second tank (a 30 year old "refurb" that looks like new) that I bought seven years ago cost a few hundred dollars. What does it cost to rent?



Why would a company that is in the business of selling propane not want to sell propane to anybody/everybody?

I would understand if they offer a discount rate for those that rent from them as a way to incentivize the long-term cash cow of tank rental, but no sale at all?

Is the no-sale thing a "gentleman's agreement" between the local propane dealers to limit competition? Do renters sign contracts to only buy from the one dealer?

I think that there is a liability issue in touching another company's equipment, so it might not entirely be jerking customers around. That said, my current propane company (one of the big national companies buying up the mom&pop propane companies) is quite happy to play endless games with customers, like eliminating local contact numbers, putting the call center overseas, and not empowering the call center representatives to be able to do anything of significance, like crediting an account. Used car salesmen are total amateurs by comparison.

A few years back, the propane company's tank leaked, and their technicians said, no problem the company will pay for the lost propane. Well, they did, eventually, but it took six months of calls, letter writing, two states Attorney Generals getting involved and a utility commission. Then the company tried to retaliate. Fun and games, and one reason I am on a mission to replace all of our propane appliances. I think that the induction stove is fifty times better than the propane stove, the heat pump dryer is both efficient and much gentler on the clothes, the heat pump water heater is on deck, which will leave just the furnace.

Around here, geothermal heat pumps have an ROI of never. I think it results from the high installation costs (labor, etc.), but it is also true that the efficiency of air source heat pumps have gotten much better over the years. Even if I installed the underground pipes myself for free, I can't make it pencil out here over the life of the units, even with the vanishing tax credits. YMMV, as I know that isn't true in other areas, especially if one is lucky, or unlucky, enough to have a high water table.

All the best,

Peter

 

[arto98607]

The only way to determine the actual efficiency is by comparing the electric rate to NG pricing.

Generally, the price difference using NG to Electric is not worth it due to the price difference of using a heat pump vs a AC unit when using a natural gas furnace (I understand that).

On my end, the price difference is negligible between HP and AC, so thus the reason why I'd go with heat pump even when using natural gas. The added benefit is anything happens to the gas supply, I still have heating with the primary HVAC using the furnace as a blower only.

Now, if you were using LP, at least in my area, it's a no brainer to go dual fuel (gas furnace with heat pump) even if there were a 1.5 K price difference between the outdoor unit and coil between HP and AC.

End of the day, I can always control when the gas furnace is operating for heating due to outdoor temperature. If you're straight AC, you HAVE to use the furnace for heat anything the temp gets below your designated set point for heating.

Even though I live in NC, my heating hours substantially are greater than my cooling hours annually. I like the option of using the heat pump over AC due to my previous comments.

Properly designed heatpump installation will have a rater large air ducting system, which should be part of the equation when considering cost of retrofit, or planning to build new house.

Just saying...

 

[Dawg in Fl]

Can't go wrong with gas.
Wife had never used a gas stove before - really wanted eletric stove like she was used to. Now, she'd never have another electric one.

 

[Torvy]

Tier 1 is $2.46 per Therm

Tier 2 is $2.98 per Therm

Above does not include surcharges or 7.5% Oakland Utility Tax

Gas was reasonable in cost for a long time but at over $3 a Therm the writing is on the wall.

9/10 that's not really the cost of NG, it's the cost of being where you are.