T&G Pine ceiling V-Groove or Nickel Gap?

[ETD66SS]

I'm starting on the insulation of the living space of my barndominium. I have to order the ceiling T&G board this week.

The plan for the interior is all the walls will be drywall, the vaulted ceiling will be T&G white pine with 1X4 trim. All the windows will be trimmed out with white pine as well.

The plan for the finish is just a satin urethane over the wood, no staining, let the wood yellow a bit over time.

I will be attaching the T&G to the bottom chords of the roof trusses which are spaced 24".

Things I need to decide: (Wondering what directions others have gone on their projets)

1) Go with end matched T&G boards or not? Would have to use blocking for boards that do not end on a truss or waste a lot more material cutting the boards so they seam at a truss.
2) V-Groove vs. Nickel Gap. I guess the interior is not really going for the rustic barn look, maybe more modern since the walls will be all drywall? I guess I don't have a theme, just wondering if anyone here has used both and if they have a preference.
3) There is a balcony area with a lot of windows, I am wondering if finishing the walls with T&G would work here. If so, does one use the same V-Grove or Nickel Gap as the ceiling to match? I asume so...

 

[rlahaise]

This is poplar air dried one year then processed and finished with tung oil before being installed with tight joints that opened up as expected when it acclimated to the dry forced air heating leaving me with penny gap look..
I have also done V-joint but only on walls,penny gap gives a much better look on a ceiling IMHO.

 

[ETD66SS]

This is poplar air dried one year then processed and finished with tung oil before being installed with tight joints that opened up as expected when it acclimated to the dry forced air heating leaving me with penny gap look..
I have also done V-joint but only on walls,penny gap gives a much better look on a ceiling IMHO.

Is tung oil a better choice for ceiling than polyurethane?

I can't say I have ever used it, does it gum up when drying while applying like older oil based finishes?

Seems like drying time could be an issue.

 

[rlahaise]

Is tung oil a better choice for ceiling than polyurethane?

I can't say I have ever used it, does it gum up when drying while applying like older oil based finishes?

Seems like drying time could be an issue.

A better choice than poly? I won’t get into that debate but for me oil is easier, I stack my boards about a dozen at a time and apply a heavy coat of oil with a rag to each board and set aside until the stack is done. I then wipe off as much as I can wringing out my rag back into my tub of oil and then I stand them against a wall where they are ready for installation the next day. Totally dry, no sticky surface and most importantly no dust in the finish like I get with poly in the dusty environment of the construction site..

With that said I have also used a homemade concoction of 60/40 poly/tung applied as a wipe on finish. Looks great but I feel it needs 2 coats just like poly and it doesn’t have that film finish look of poly.

 

[ETD66SS]

A better choice than poly? I won’t get into that debate but for me oil is easier, I stack my boards about a dozen at a time and apply a heavy coat of oil with a rag to each board and set aside until the stack is done. I then wipe off as much as I can wringing out my rag back into my tub of oil and then I stand them against a wall where they are ready for installation the next day. Totally dry, no sticky surface and most importantly no dust in the finish like I get with poly in the dusty environment of the construction site..

With that said I have also used a homemade concoction of 60/40 poly/tung applied as a wipe on finish. Looks great but I feel it needs 2 coats just like poly and it doesn’t have that film finish look of poly.

I guess maybe I am a bit confused. I am reading that tung oil takes 30 days to cure. Maybe it can be handled much sooner?

 

[EddieWalker]

I like Tongue and Groove. I've never installed nickel joint or shiplap. I've removed it on old homes, and it was a pain because of all the nails they used back in the day.

I can install 8 foot T&G by myself fairly quickly. I staple them in place and stagger my joints. I think it's important that the joints create a pattern so it looks uniform when done. Usually, it's half the length so it lines up with a ceiling joist.

I stain the pine and I use a clear oil for western cedar. I use the cedar outdoors, the pine is indoors. Both are stained before installing them. It just takes a minute to do each board after cutting it, and then I install them while they are still wet and let them dry in place.

There is nothing worse than applying stain or oil upside down!!!!!

I don't believe you can get good penetration spraying. It has to be done with a brush.

 

[ETD66SS]

I like Tongue and Groove. I've never installed nickel joint or shiplap. I've removed it on old homes, and it was a pain because of all the nails they used back in the day.

I can install 8 foot T&G by myself fairly quickly. I staple them in place and stagger my joints. I think it's important that the joints create a pattern so it looks uniform when done. Usually, it's half the length so it lines up with a ceiling joist.

I stain the pine and I use a clear oil for western cedar. I use the cedar outdoors, the pine is indoors. Both are stained before installing them. It just takes a minute to do each board after cutting it, and then I install them while they are still wet and let them dry in place.

There is nothing worse than applying stain or oil upside down!!!!!

I don't believe you can get good penetration spraying. It has to be done with a brush.

When you say "stain", is that an all-in-one stain + polyurethane? Or just stain?

Also, I have read some articles and watched plenty of YT videos on the end joints. Pretty much everyone states to randomize the joints and not to create a pattern. Also, all the places I have asked for quotes on the T&G have quoted me random lenghts between 4ft-12ft long pieces.

I initially didn't want to pay for matched ends, but after some more research I think that is what I am going to order.

Just have to make a final decision between V-Groove & Nickel-Gap, then figure out a finish to use. I will definitely apply the finish before installing on the ceiling.

 

[HawkinsHollow]

Timely post! I am about to install about 200 sqft of T&G pine in my screen porch. I Found some local 12" wide T&G pine for $1.49/LF. Trying to figure out how I am going to finish it.

 

[EddieWalker]

When you say "stain", is that an all-in-one stain + polyurethane? Or just stain?

Also, I have read some articles and watched plenty of YT videos on the end joints. Pretty much everyone states to randomize the joints and not to create a pattern. Also, all the places I have asked for quotes on the T&G have quoted me random lenghts between 4ft-12ft long pieces.

I initially didn't want to pay for matched ends, but after some more research I think that is what I am going to order.

Just have to make a final decision between V-Groove & Nickel-Gap, then figure out a finish to use. I will definitely apply the finish before installing on the ceiling.

I don't like the shiny finish on a wood stain ceiling, so I just use regular minwax for the stain.

The picture is my Akita room. It's where all our kennels are and wash station.



This is the western cedar on my back porch. You can see the pattern in the boards. They are staggered every 4 feet. This is finished with Sherwin Williams Superdeck Transparent Oil.

 

[ETD66SS]

I don't like the shiny finish on a wood stain ceiling, so I just use regular minwax for the stain.

The picture is my Akita room. It's where all our kennels are and wash station.

View attachment 5542331

This is the western cedar on my back porch. You can see the pattern in the boards. They are staggered every 4 feet. This is finished with Sherwin Williams Superdeck Transparent Oil.

View attachment 5542333

I also don't like glossy finishes on wood, was planning on something like this:

No stain, just natural whie pine color.

I've read that you apply the first coat with a brush, then sand with 220 grit a day later and spray on two more light coats.

 

[rlahaise]

I guess maybe I am a bit confused. I am reading that tung oil takes 30 days to cure. Maybe it can be handled much sooner?

It takes up to 30 days to CURE but the surface is sufficiently dry/soaked in that it can be handled with little to no oil transfer after 24 hours.

 

[ETD66SS]

It takes up to 30 days to CURE but the surface is sufficiently dry/soaked in that it can be handled with little to no oil transfer after 24 hours.

It sounds easier than 3 coats of poly with sanding in between.

I also hate seeing dust in the poly (like I pretty much see on everything anyone has ever done exept in factory controlled environment pre finished pieces).

 

[rlahaise]

It sounds easier than 3 coats of poly with sanding in between.

I also hate seeing dust in the poly (like I pretty much see on everything anyone has ever done exept in factory controlled environment pre finished pieces).

If I want the durability of poly I’ll apply 2 thin coats with a light 220ish sanding after each coat dries then my home brew wipe on to give a non shiny finish without that plastic looking buildup.

At 60 I’ve tried my share of “new” finishes that get lots of publicity at first but quickly disappears, I’m willing to try almost anything once and my upcoming build is a solid 2” cherry harvest style table for my wife and I’m thinking about Rubio Monicoat (sp?) as I have seen some pretty impressive reviews and easier than poly Tougher than tung.

 

[ETD66SS]

If I want the durability of poly I’ll apply 2 thin coats with a light 220ish sanding after each coat dries then my home brew wipe on to give a non shiny finish without that plastic looking buildup.

At 60 I’ve tried my share of “new” finishes that get lots of publicity at first but quickly disappears, I’m willing to try almost anything once and my upcoming build is a solid 2” cherry harvest style table for my wife and I’m thinking about Rubio Monicoat (sp?) as I have seen some pretty impressive reviews and easier than poly Tougher than tung.

It does look like it would work well. The whole wiping off after 15 minutes thing scares me a bit, like once it tacks up you're done...

 

[rumwrks]

I am reading that tung oil takes 30 days to cure.

The problem with "tung oil" is that a lot of it isn't (tung oil that is). Pure tung oil is IMHO a multi-day finishing process to get much real build, a single coat can work but looks blotchy on a lot of woods and doesn't have much film protection. The main advantage of tung over BLO and some similar products is that it has really good water resistance (probably not important here). It's oxygen cured so if you apply it to thick it won't cure because it forms a film and that inhibits curing of the oil below. So thin coats, UV exposure, and applied warm are all your friends here. The Stumpy Nubs video on it is actually not bad (clickbait headline aside)

.

There are also some tung oil derived products like waterlox original (not the new stuff) which is tung oil with a phenolic resin added which is tough a nails and hard as a rock. it also ambers the wood a lot.

There are a lot of "tung oil" products like minwax tung oil which .. may or may not include any actual tung oil and are basically wiping varnishes. Wiping varnishes go down fast and cure fast because they're pretty thin. I like using them a lot as well. If you wipe on 3 or 4 thin coats you can end up with a nice finish without the goopy look of pure poly.

IMHO all of the above still benefit from a scuff sand after the first pass to knock off any raised nibs.

I've also had good luck with General Finishes Endurovar which is a water based poly.. It's a bit of a challenge to apply without a spray setup as it cures really really fast. The water based also very definitely raises the grain a lot so you need to lightly hit it with 220-320 grit after the first coat to knock off the fuzz.. but the second coat is HARD and smooth... which lets dirt just drop off. It's maybe not as impact resistant as some of the oil based products but in this use case that doesn't matter. It also doesn't change the wood color nearly as much as oil leaving it a lot lighter which can be a plus or a minus depending on the look you're going for.

I would be cautious of the Rubio stuff. The base oil is fine but the hardener is isocyanate based with some other stuff and I wouldn't use it unless it was somewhere VERY well ventilated and even then a vapor mask and good gloves would be recommended. It's fine once it's cured, it's the volatile bits until that's done that I don't trust. Personally I don't really use the stuff much although it can have it's place.

For your V groove vs gap question, imho definitely V groove.. It'll collect less dirt and be easier to clean. Those narrow cracks will eventually get stuff in them and be a pain to clean out. The V groove also hides not-quite-perfect fit better as well because your eye is drawn to the V part more.

 

[ETD66SS]

The problem with "tung oil" is that a lot of it isn't (tung oil that is). Pure tung oil is IMHO a multi-day finishing process to get much real build, a single coat can work but looks blotchy on a lot of woods and doesn't have much film protection. The main advantage of tung over BLO and some similar products is that it has really good water resistance (probably not important here). It's oxygen cured so if you apply it to thick it won't cure because it forms a film and that inhibits curing of the oil below. So thin coats, UV exposure, and applied warm are all your friends here. The Stumpy Nubs video on it is actually not bad (clickbait headline aside)

.

There are also some tung oil derived products like waterlox original (not the new stuff) which is tung oil with a phenolic resin added which is tough a nails and hard as a rock. it also ambers the wood a lot.

There are a lot of "tung oil" products like minwax tung oil which .. may or may not include any actual tung oil and are basically wiping varnishes. Wiping varnishes go down fast and cure fast because they're pretty thin. I like using them a lot as well. If you wipe on 3 or 4 thin coats you can end up with a nice finish without the goopy look of pure poly.

IMHO all of the above still benefit from a scuff sand after the first pass to knock off any raised nibs.

I've also had good luck with General Finishes Endurovar which is a water based poly.. It's a bit of a challenge to apply without a spray setup as it cures really really fast. The water based also very definitely raises the grain a lot so you need to lightly hit it with 220-320 grit after the first coat to knock off the fuzz.. but the second coat is HARD and smooth... which lets dirt just drop off. It's maybe not as impact resistant as some of the oil based products but in this use case that doesn't matter. It also doesn't change the wood color nearly as much as oil leaving it a lot lighter which can be a plus or a minus depending on the look you're going for.

I would be cautious of the Rubio stuff. The base oil is fine but the hardener is isocyanate based with some other stuff and I wouldn't use it unless it was somewhere VERY well ventilated and even then a vapor mask and good gloves would be recommended. It's fine once it's cured, it's the volatile bits until that's done that I don't trust. Personally I don't really use the stuff much although it can have it's place.

For your V groove vs gap question, imho definitely V groove.. It'll collect less dirt and be easier to clean. Those narrow cracks will eventually get stuff in them and be a pain to clean out. The V groove also hides not-quite-perfect fit better as well because your eye is drawn to the V part more.

A lot of good info, thank you.

 

[Racer4]

I’ve put up thousands of square feet of t&g. It can be somewhat difficult if the joists aren’t in line to get the v tight. A bar or chisel helps, and a short piece of t&g as a pounding block (fits over tongue to protect against hammer blows). Checking the straightness of the rows every so often with a string will keep you from getting a curve in your rows.

Nickel gap is easier to install, but you’ll see the nail holes when done. If you nail the t&g right, you won’t see nail holes.

 

[ETD66SS]

I’ve put up thousands of square feet of t&g. It can be somewhat difficult if the joists aren’t in line to get the v tight. A bar or chisel helps, and a short piece of t&g as a pounding block (fits over tongue to protect against hammer blows). Checking the straightness of the rows every so often with a string will keep you from getting a curve in your rows.

Nickel gap is easier to install, but you’ll see the nail holes when done. If you nail the t&g right, you won’t see nail holes.

This will be my first time installing a non-drywall ceiling.

The T&G will be nailed to the bottom chords of the scissor roof trusses with a 1-1/2:12 pitch. I can already see the Amish crew that installed the trusses do not have them perfectly centered, so the peak wanders a bit. I have yet to get my laser on them to see how bad.

For installation on a vaulted ceiling interrupted by partition walls for rooms, where is the best place to start, at the peak or at the side walls? Do I need a faux beam in the center of the peak or do I try to scribe cut the pieces at the peak? (seems like that would be difficult and not give great results).

 

[EddieWalker]

I always start at the wall and work my way up. I put the female side towards the wall with the male side being where I nail. I use staples since they hold better then brands or nails. I angle the staple gun so it right at the edge of the where the next one will cover it, but usually it's right were the next board starts. Once installed, if any staples are showing, they are invisible to the eye. On that first row, I staple on both sides of the board. I try to get the staple in so it blends with the grain of the wood. It really doesn't matter because it's so hard to see once you're standing on the ground and looking for it.

With 8 foot long boards, it's easy to get one side in the groove, then angle-tilt the other end of the board to get it lined up. Then I use a rubber mallet to tap it in all the way. The rubber mallet doesn't damage the male side of the board, which is another reason I install them that way.

When I clear coat something I always use Minwax Polycrylic. For what I do, it's always worked great for me. First coat soaks into the wood and raises the grain. Lightly sand, wipe and the next coat is nice and smooth. I've never done that for a ceiling. Just stain or just oil, depending on the wood.

Amazon.com

I made these two beams in my Mom's house out of Poplar. I stained them with Minwax and finished them in Polycrylic. I wanted a place for the ceiling fans to be flush and not too far up.

When installing the Tongue and Groove, be sure to measure how far it is to the peak from both ends of the run to make sure you are parallel. It's pretty easy to be off a quarter inch half way up, so keep checking and adjusting as you go. Once you are about two or three boards from finishing to the peak, measure every time to make sure the last board is perfect. Then rip the last row to fit dead center. When you go up the other side, do the same. When you install that last board, you can fudge it a smidge to get it tight but not going all the way into the groove. Don't be surprised if you have to through away to first one, it's a tricky measurement and I tend to get it wrong at least once. To me, it's a cleaner look to not have to cover the gape with a trim board of fake beam.

Are you going to have ceiling fans? It's always better if you have a flat, level area to mount them.

 

[ETD66SS]

The electrician insisted I put fans in the bedroom and office. I didn't care either way.

But with a 1-1/2:12 pitch, do I really need to make a flat spot? Might look more odd than having the fan base cover on an angle...