120V MIG 3/8" coupon test results

[MossRoad]

And its not MIG if its flux core. Its not potato/potato, tomato/tomato. There's a huge difference. So please get the nomenclature correct.

Again, I quote from this link from Lincoln Electric...
GMAW vs FCAW-S Process

General Usage Rules

MIG
As a rule of thumb, it is recommended to use a compact 115 volt input (or 230 volt) MIG wire feeder welder indoors on clean new steel that is 24 to 12 gauge thick. 12 gauge is a little less than 1/8" thick. 24 gauge is less than 1/16" thick. The smallest wire (.025") will make it the easiest to weld the thinnest (24 gauge) material. The .030" diameter wire will weld a little faster deposition rate. If you need to weld 1/8" to 1/4" thick material with MIG, you will need the higher capacity compact machine which will require 230 volt input. The higher amperage range of this machine can better handle your welding needs in a single pass and you may not have to waste time with second or third passes. The 230 volt machine could also run .035" diameter wire. To MIG weld material more than 1/4" thick, you need a higher capacity truly industrial machine. If most of your welding will be performed indoors on clean material that is less than 1/8" thick, a MIG machine that operates on 115 volts is probably your best bet for economic reasons in that a 230 volt input machine will be more expensive.


Flux-Cored
The flux-cored process is only recommended on materials as thin as 20 gauge, a bit thicker than the 24 gauge we said for MIG. In general, this process is best for welding thicker materials with a single pass, especially if you need to weld outdoors such as to repair a tractor out in the field. A 115 volt flux-cored machine using an electrode such as .035" Innershield NR-211-MP will generally allow you to weld steel up to 1/4" thick. Note that this is more than double the thickness maximum of 12 gauge with MIG on 115 volts. With the proper electrode on a proper machine, such as .045" Innershield NR-211MP, and a 230 volt input machine, you can weld steel up to 1/2" thick. Note that Innershieldｮ NR-211-MP requires that the machine be setup for DC negative polarity.

Now there's no harm in trying it for yourself, but telling people its O.K. for everyday use items is kind of irresponsible.

 

[Sodo]

I'm

Now there's no harm in trying it for yourself, but telling people its O.K. for everyday use items is kind of irresponsible.

What about helping members, who occasionally weld thicker than the recommended ,,,, how to do it? Also the link is from Lincoln, whereas Hobart & Miller Machines are capable of welding up to 1/4" steel, no need to use Lincoln's limitations. Besides it's a little too late for that we're way past 12ga with other 120v machines.

Understood some members find it upsetting when 120v MIG owners get "too big for their britches". I for one do not believe that forum members are welding much in excess of 1/4", that is, if they are doing any projects at all.

When posts of "what you cannot do" far exceed "what you CAN do", its reasonable to conclude that not much actual welding is occurring here. And will probably stay that way as long as the 240v members have a need to assert themselves over the 120v members. There could be more forum activity when this "need" passes.

 

[Arc weld]

I don't get it. First this is supposed to be a hobby/maintenance forum and the "pro's" don't know what they're talking about and their experience doesn't count for anything. Then the same pro's are expected to pass a bend test, they thought was possibly doable with a lot work, just to prove it could be done because no one else has been able to do it. The people campaigning it can be done can't or don't want to do it for what ever reason or excuse works for them. Pictures are posted of someone almost doing it with the ends cut off but still enough of a flaw to constitute a fail. Text from one of the largest and most respected names in welding clearly outlines the limitations of 110 volt wire feed welders (which coincidentally agree's with what the "pro's" have been saying all along) but they don't know what they're talking about either. Another highly respected name in welding say's up to 1/4" is maximum but that's still not to be believed.

Where's Linus when you really need him If he can explain the meaning of Christmas to Charlie Brown, he'd be the best bet to explain how a 110 welder can pass a 3/8" bend test. It's like Lucy pulling the football away from good ol' Charlie Brown at the last second. Almost but not quite. All I can say is Good Grief!:duh:

 

[dragoneggs]

I absolutely loved how this thread started out... with some flat out good humor. Let's stay positive and learn something. Too bad some of us have to wade through puddles of testosterone to find gems about welding. Some of us have what we have and appreciate 'MacGyvering' things. No, I'm not talking about a trailer that is going to break and kill someone... but a trick that just might save oneself in a pinch.

 

[square1]

I will stand by what I have said earlier, I think it is irresponsible to suggest to every Tom, Dick and Harry that goes out and buys a 120v mig machine, that it is ok for them to weld 3/8 metal with it

This has been a common theme throughout all these threads. It is probably a major reason pleas for a pro to attempt this have gained zero traction. Professionals understand that demonstrating that something can be done, does not make it acceptable. I am a professional (not a professional welder) and I know tricks for getting things done in my field that will pass 90% of the time. I also have a good feel for, and avoid the pitfalls that result in the 10% that will fail and don't apply tricks in those situations. As a professional I would never go public with suggesting one of these tricks is acceptable.

 

[mikehaugen]

This has been a common theme throughout all these threads. It is probably a major reason pleas for a pro to attempt this have gained zero traction. Professionals understand that demonstrating that something can be done, does not make it acceptable. I am a professional (not a professional welder) and I know tricks for getting things done in my field that will pass 90% of the time. I also have a good feel for, and avoid the pitfalls that result in the 10% that will fail and don't apply tricks in those situations. As a professional I would never go public with suggesting one of these tricks is acceptable.

Please tell me you aren't a surgeon...

 

[ericher69]

Please tell me you aren't a surgeon...

hopefully not but having said that and having seen many surgeries I can honestly say that plenty of MacGyvering goes on in the operation room.

See the differences IMHO is professionals with education, knowledge, experience that know how to troubleshoot issues to get the job done safely giving favorable outcomes. I am applying these observations to Weldors and surgeons.

Sent from my iPhone 5s 64Gb using TractorByNet

 

[roadhunter]

I don't get it. First this is supposed to be a hobby/maintenance forum and the "pro's" don't know what they're talking about and their experience doesn't count for anything. Then the same pro's are expected to pass a bend test, they thought was possibly doable with a lot work, just to prove it could be done because no one else has been able to do it. The people campaigning it can be done can't or don't want to do it for what ever reason or excuse works for them. Pictures are posted of someone almost doing it with the ends cut off but still enough of a flaw to constitute a fail. Text from one of the largest and most respected names in welding clearly outlines the limitations of 110 volt wire feed welders (which coincidentally agree's with what the "pro's" have been saying all along) but they don't know what they're talking about either. Another highly respected name in welding say's up to 1/4" is maximum but that's still not to be believed.

Where's Linus when you really need him If he can explain the meaning of Christmas to Charlie Brown, he'd be the best bet to explain how a 110 welder can pass a 3/8" bend test. It's like Lucy pulling the football away from good ol' Charlie Brown at the last second. Almost but not quite. All I can say is Good Grief!:duh:

What's really strange is how you continue to show up and say the same thing over and over and over. You have made your point but for some reason that is not good enough and even after it has been proven possible you still seem hung up on trash talking.

We test the limits of machines all the time. I tried to lift a pallet of treated lumber with my tractor last weekend and it was more than the tractor was rated for but with some creativity I was still able to get it off my trailer using the tractor. I suspect most of us have operated equipment beyond it's rated capacity yet nobody comes in telling us how unsafe that is and how we are going to kill somebody trying to lift more than the tractor is rated to lift. But for some reason you feel the need to come here and tell us all how wrong we are over and over. If you want to contribute then please contribute. But if you are simply here to start a fight and say the same things over and over simple move along to anther thread where you can contribute and not bring the negativity that you constantly do on these 120v welder threads.

Please stop whining about how nobody respects a professional welder. It's absolutely not true and quite frankly you seem to get you feelings hurt way too easy if someone doesn't follow your advice just like SA did.

And you can stop pretending that a 120v welder can't pass a 3/8 bend test as it has been proven to be possible with a tremendous amount of preheating and a skilled operator. I suspect you will still run around telling everyone how it's not true because you feel threatened by 120v welders and will do anything possible to run down their capability and usefullness but as I said earlier a simple Google search will prove it to be true.

 

[roadhunter]

Road, the locked threads can still be read, you can go back and reread all of my old posts and I said many times I thought it might could be done. I didnt just come on here after you posted a supposed passed bend test and change what I have said in the past. I will stand by what I have said earlier, I think it is irresponsible to suggest to every Tom, Dick and Harry that goes out and buys a 120v mig machine, that it is ok for them to weld 3/8 metal with it, even if someone somewhere did manage to pass a bend test with. If indeed the bend test was passed, the amount of prep time involved is probably over the patience/skill/knowledge level of most would be weldors and they are bound to take short cuts with the task. I equally sure that there are plenty of new 120 mig owners reading this and other forums, and most are just itching to put their new welders to work. I dont think they should be misled into believing their 120v machines can safely build whatever their project might be based on somebodies insistance that 120v mig machines can safely weld thick metal. Further, the bend test results you have posted where not mig welded they where fcaw and there is a difference. Just because a welding machine runs wire doesnt mean its mig welded. I also wouldnt reccommend FCAW with a 120v machine on 3/8 steel.

The strange part is nobody is recommending that people do any critical welds on heavy material with 120v welders. Nobody is trying to mislead other folks into believing their 120v welder is good to use on 3/8 material. Nobody is telling people to do anything unsafe. Heck all that we are dealing with is practice pieces. We talking bout practice, practice??, we talking about practice.


The bottom line is you can continue to show up and lecture us on how this is unsafe and how this is not something that should be done on a critical weld, 120v welders are not suited to weld 3/8 material, etc, etc.. or you can realize that nobody is even suggesting any of that and you are basically just arguing to argue as nobody is disagreeing with what you are saying. Hopefully once you realize that you will be able to contribute.

 

[Blade Breaker]

The strange part is nobody is recommending that people do any critical welds on heavy material with 120v welders. Nobody is trying to mislead other folks into believing their 120v welder is good to use on 3/8 material. Nobody is telling people to do anything unsafe. Heck all that we are dealing with is practice pieces. We talking bout practice, practice??, we talking about practice.
View attachment 392724

The bottom line is you can continue to show up and lecture us on how this is unsafe and how this is not something that should be done on a critical weld, 120v welders are not suited to weld 3/8 material, etc, etc.. or you can realize that nobody is even suggesting any of that and you are basically just arguing to argue as nobody is disagreeing with what you are saying. Hopefully once you realize that you will be able to contribute.

Above you mention that 120v welders are not rated for 3/8" plate. Not true. SMAW will run on 120v CC machines well and heavier than 3/8" will be fine with proper technique. That is a tip I suggested many pages ago but it was not what some were looking for but that is the tip I can offer.

120v CV machines on plate can hold that has already been noted. Preheat, flux cored, and joint prep are ways to improve the chance of a strong weld on materials heavier than 3/16".

What else could you possibly be looking for?? Let me know and I will try and answer.

 

[roadhunter]

Above you mention that 120v welders are not rated for 3/8" plate. Not true. SMAW will run on 120v CC machines well and heavier than 3/8" will be fine with proper technique. That is a tip I suggested many pages ago but it was not what some were looking for but that is the tip I can offer.

120v CV machines on plate can hold that has already been noted. Preheat, flux cored, and joint prep are ways to improve the chance of a strong weld on materials heavier than 3/16".

What else could you possibly be looking for?? Let me know and I will try and answer.

I have a couple of 120v/240v SMAW machines and I agree completely, but I was under the impression that we were discussing the 120v wire feed machines. I actually hooked my Everlast PA200 (plugged to 120v) to my Miller s32-p suitcase welder and it is much more powerful than my Hobart 125.

Excellent point. What 120v SMAW machines do you have?

 

[Blade Breaker]

I have a couple of 120v/240v SMAW machines and I agree completely, but I was under the impression that we were discussing the 120v wire feed machines. I actually hooked my Everlast PA200 (plugged to 120v) to my Miller s32-p suitcase welder and it is much more powerful than my Hobart 125.

Excellent point. What 120v SMAW machines do you have?

The 120V CV machine noted above is a wire feed machine.

I had at one time a Miller Max Star 150. Running on 120v It will run 1/8" 6010 very nicely at around 90-110 amps. 7018 it would run but you could trip breakers if your doing allot of welding running at 120+ amps. Sold this due to the fact I do not travel much for my personal business any more and I now have a generator to run my larger welder if needed. SMAW is a much better choice for farm/construction equipment repair and sometimes even fabrication.

I currently have these welders, Miller XMT 300 with a S-22A feeder, and Lincoln Square wave tig 355. The Lincoln is the actual machine I used when I was in welding school. When the school was trading for new machines after I graduated my instructor called me and asked if I wanted to by any. I went right up and got this one. I just love the way it runs 7018. Passed all my pipe certs on this actual machine. I have only 230V single phase in my shop so I have some 50 amp breakers for the XMT and one 100 amp for the Lincoln.

Maxstar 150 STH - TIG Welder - GTAW - Miller Welding

 

[zing]

Well said Muddstopper. What keeps getting lost in these threads is the fact that very few have said it is absolutely impossible to weld the 3/8" with 110 v machine and pass the bend test. What most of us have tried to point out over and over is it is not a good idea to keep presenting it like its no big deal and anyone can do it. These different people that have either been able to pass the bend test or came close are experienced weldors and spent considerable time and effort prepping the coupons for welding.

How can yo usay that? The idea that 120V welder are not perfect at welding thick metal has been repeated and acknowledged a hundred times. This is the way the conversation keeps going.

- 120V guy - What are some tips for welding thicker metal (like 3/8)?
- 220 V guy - That is outside of the specs. You could kill someone welding a trailer with 120V and driving it 75 on the highway.
- 120V guy - Ok, but I am not doing anything that will go on the highway. It is just a little project for personal use.
- 220 V guy - Bucket hooks over your head could snap and drop 2000 lbs on your head.
- 120V guy - I am not talking about bucket hoops.
- 220 V guy - It won't pass a bend test.
- 120V guy - I don't need to pass a bend test, I just want some tips to make it the best it can be. I can add some gussets to help support it.
- 220 V guy - It is irresponsible to say you can weld a battlehip with 120 V just by adding some gussets.
- 120V guy - I don't want to weld a battleship, I just want to do some projects for personal use around the farm.
- 220 V guy - Buy a 220V welder.
- 120V guy - I can't afford a 220V welder or the rewiring required to get 220V to my shed.
- 220V guy - It takes too long to weld thick metal with 120 V. It takes an hour to do prep and multiple welds. Just use 220V and it can be done in 5 minutes with one pass.
- 120V guy - I don't mind spending some extra time, because it it the only option I have. I can't afford a 220V welder or the rewiring required to get 220V to my shed.
- 220V guy - Just pay a professional to do it for you instead of trying to do something that is outside of the manufacturer's specs for the welder.
- 120V guy - I don't want to pay for a professional, this it a do it yourself forum and I am just looking for some tips on how to make the best of the equipment that I have.
- 220V guy - You can't use a jeweler's hammer to pound in a fence post. You need a sledgehammer.
- 120V guy - If the horses are going to get out of my field and run on the road I will use a rock to pound in the fence post if I have to. In the real world people MacGyver stuff all of the time. I am just looking for tips to make the best of the equipment that I have.
- 220V guy - The prep work is too meticulous to get it to pass a bend test. No beginner is actually going to spend the time required to prep it properly.
- 120V guy - I don't mind spending some extra time, it is just good practice. Besides a beginner with a 220V welder might also skip the prep work and get poor penetration on their weld.
- 220V guy - You can't just make up something that is not on the welding spec sheet that has been signed off by the weld engineer.
- 120V guy - There is no weld engineer or signoff sheet. This is just for little projects at my farm.
- 220V guy - It's irresponsible. You could kill someone welding a trailer with 120V and driving it 75MPH on the highway.


As far as I can tell the ones beating the dead horse are the people who keep saying that no one should EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER try to weld anything thicker than sheet metal with a 120V welderr, because it could be fatal.

 

[Blade Breaker]

OK what is the project you want tips on I can try and help. There are to many variables to just say that gussets will help in all cases. Looking for a single tip that can make things stick is probably not possible. It will greatly depend on the project.
Just so you know I love the low voltage machines and am not saying they do not have there place in the world.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Road hunter, I may have missed it, but...was that a root bend or a face bend you made? I don't see both. There is a difference.
And did you post somewhere your process to authenticate the results? I am not saying you did not do this, but am wondering about your settings, and particular "troubles" you went to, including prep process, total plate length etc.

If you did post this, please provide a link. It's important not to know it is possible, but "how" it is possible...otherwise, it is just irresponsible for those of the guys who are impressionable by your post for them to think it can be done "any ole way".

 

[roadhunter]

The 120V CV machine noted above is a wire feed machine.

I had at one time a Miller Max Star 150. Running on 120v It will run 1/8" 6010 very nicely at around 90-110 amps. 7018 it would run but you could trip breakers if your doing allot of welding running at 120+ amps. Sold this due to the fact I do not travel much for my personal business any more and I now have a generator to run my larger welder if needed. SMAW is a much better choice for farm/construction equipment repair and sometimes even fabrication.

I currently have these welders, Miller XMT 300 with a S-22A feeder, and Lincoln Square wave tig 355. The Lincoln is the actual machine I used when I was in welding school. When the school was trading for new machines after I graduated my instructor called me and asked if I wanted to by any. I went right up and got this one. I just love the way it runs 7018. Passed all my pipe certs on this actual machine. I have only 230V single phase in my shop so I have some 50 amp breakers for the XMT and one 100 amp for the Lincoln.

Maxstar 150 STH - TIG Welder - GTAW - Miller Welding

I've got a maxstar 150 as well. Runs 1/8 rod really well. Nice and compact.

 

[roadhunter]

Road hunter, I may have missed it, but...was that a root bend or a face bend you made? I don't see both. There is a difference.
And did you post somewhere your process to authenticate the results? I am not saying you did not do this, but am wondering about your settings, and particular "troubles" you went to, including prep process, total plate length etc.

If you did post this, please provide a link. It's important not to know it is possible, but "how" it is possible...otherwise, it is just irresponsible for those of the guys who are impressionable by your post for them to think it can be done "any ole way".

Mark,

It was not me. It was from another forum where a similar discussion was taking place. Sounded like he went to a lot of trouble to preheat the material before he welded it. I posted links but they were pruned. Do a search and you will find plenty of discussion on the subject and even a few success stories.

I've messed around with my Hobart 125 and my everalst pa200 hooked to a miller suitcase and have had success on 1/4" material but I dont' have any 3/8 material. I was actually willing to participate in the testing but when it became obvious that many were her to argue and bash instead of contribute and be productive I decided not to continue.

Do you think a pa200 hooked to 120v could pass a bend test using 3/32 or 1/8 rod?

 

[zing]

OK what is the project you want tips on I can try and help. There are to many variables to just say that gussets will help in all cases. Looking for a single tip that can make things stick is probably not possible. It will greatly depend on the project.
Just so you know I love the low voltage machines and am not saying they do not have there place in the world.

I appreciate that, but to be honest I don't think this conversation is about any particular project, it is about the fact that so often when someone asks about doing a project with 120 the helpful responses are like hen's teeth while the majority of posts are "Get a 220 welder."


To respond to your post though, I have a yard trailer with a broken axle and so I am thinking about putting a walking beam on it to make it a little more durable and survive the ruts and holes in my fields. I would like to reinforce the section that would be considered the tongue/subframe, so that walking beam supports are solid and can join at both the outside of the trailer and also at the center. I would alos have to build the beams and supports, plus attach the axles. The supports and the walking beams are not going to be 3/8's but they will be thicker than sheet metal.

At this point I am just thinking about what it should look like and how to do it as cheaply as possible, while still making it solid enough to last.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd320/nstizing/IMG-20140901-02115Medium_zps7e876089.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd320/nstizing/walkingbeamtrailertilted_zpsc961bf3d.jpg

 

[Todd NE WY]

The strange part is nobody is recommending that people do any critical welds on heavy material with 120v welders. Nobody is trying to mislead other folks into believing their 120v welder is good to use on 3/8 material. Nobody is telling people to do anything unsafe. Heck all that we are dealing with is practice pieces. We talking bout practice, practice??, we talking about practice.
View attachment 392724

The bottom line is you can continue to show up and lecture us on how this is unsafe and how this is not something that should be done on a critical weld, 120v welders are not suited to weld 3/8 material, etc, etc.. or you can realize that nobody is even suggesting any of that and you are basically just arguing to argue as nobody is disagreeing with what you are saying. Hopefully once you realize that you will be able to contribute.

No the strange part is you bunch of Sodo fan boys chanting and carrying on about nobody is recommending it. Sodo over and over again recommends it for "fixing the occasional thick bracket". Not sure what your definition of "recommends" is but he is recommending people do it.

So for what seems like the millionth time if you want to practice at home and go thru what it takes to weld 3/8" with a 110 v wire feed machine have at it, but quite posting and acting like it is routine procedure to do it. I know I know this is a "hobbiest forum" or thats what I keep seeing posted. Hobbiest or not I want the stuff I build and repair to stay that way. I have a life and I don't need to waste time on inadequate repairs or builds. For the record yes I own and use a 110 wire feed machine, I also own and use a Miller BlueStar 6000, I pick which one depending on what I need to do. I don't weld on the livestock panels that I am rebuilding with the miller and I didn't do any of the structural welds on the bale spear I built with the 110 v wire feed machine. Yes, I did use it to tack the spear collars on before the final weld with the miller.

 

[roadhunter]

No the strange part is you bunch of Sodo fan boys chanting and carrying on about nobody is recommending it. Sodo over and over again recommends it for "fixing the occasional thick bracket". Not sure what your definition of "recommends" is but he is recommending people do it.

So for what seems like the millionth time if you want to practice at home and go thru what it takes to weld 3/8" with a 110 v wire feed machine have at it, but quite posting and acting like it is routine procedure to do it. I know I know this is a "hobbiest forum" or thats what I keep seeing posted. Hobbiest or not I want the stuff I build and repair to stay that way. I have a life and I don't need to waste time on inadequate repairs or builds. For the record yes I own and use a 110 wire feed machine, I also own and use a Miller BlueStar 6000, I pick which one depending on what I need to do. I don't weld on the livestock panels that I am rebuilding with the miller and I didn't do any of the structural welds on the bale spear I built with the 110 v wire feed machine. Yes, I did use it to tack the spear collars on before the final weld with the miller.

Another fine contribution to the topic for the millionth time. "get a bigger welder" "this is unsafe" etc..... And as usual nobody is recommending doing anything unsafe but for some reason we still get the same worn out lecture. I also never said anything about this being "routine" either.

So basically you just did the same rant about a bunch of things nobody is suggesting. Nobody is suggesting this is "routine", nobody. You just made that up. Nobody is suggesting this be done on any critical weld, nobody. Nobody is suggesting this be done on a bale spear. So basically you are just arguing with yourself as nobody is saying what you are claiming. Keep up the great work.