15% ethanol!?!?

[Wacky]

I had just got my Sthil 029 Farmboss back from the dealer. They said the reason I could not get it to run was because the fuel pickup was full of "gelled ethanol type gunk". He said the good ol' government was trying to raise the ethanol content to 15%. He has seen this type of increase of the gell around the pickups in the last 8 months and he sees no end in sight.
If the government increases the ethanol content, what is this going to do to cars and trucks, lawn equipment that are not ethanol rated?? I hope there is an additive someone will come out with to help deal with this atrocity.

 

[Travelover]

Stabil Marine

 

[Diamondpilot]

Well it looks like you are a pilot, me also. Just over 7,000 hours. I run 100LL through all my small engines. They run great on it. May cost a few more dollars each year but will save you tons in repair bills.

Chris

 

[jinman]

I am convinced that ethanol is a curse to small engines needing tiny metered fuel flow. I don't know why it does not seem to have the same effect on larger auto/truck engines, but all of my small 2-cycle and 4-cycle engines are suffering from ethanol related problems. I've had a Stihl chainsaw that the pickup tube suddenly turned to mush. I have two 2-cycle string trimmers with carb diaphrams that disentegrated. My John Deere LA145 mower with a B&S engine has a float valve that sticks. It has required me to pressurize the input fuel line with 30 psi air to force the needle valve open everytime I want to use the mower. One tank of pure non-ethanol gas and the problem has disappeared. It's like magic.

I will pay whatever I have to pay for non-ethanol gas for my small engines. I got really lucky and found a local gas station buying only non-ethanol gasoline. They are almost $0.20 higher per gallon, but I have started buying all my small engine gasoline from them.

In my opinion, government regulators who prescribe ethanol in our gasoline are out of touch with normal folks like us.:thumbdown: How many of these people do you think ever touched a chainsaw or string trimmer? More ethanol = more problems.

 

[Marveltone]

I'm fortunate enough to have a station that sells non-oxygenated gas in my town. That's the only stuff that goes in my chainsaw, mowers, motorcycle and boat. I've had the repair bills from ethanol in the past, and would rather not go there anymore. To me, the added cost of non-oxy is worth it.

 

[beenthere]

And the non-oxy is what, in relation to ethanol in the fuel? :confused3:

I can buy ethanol-free gas and get it for 10 cents more per gallon. That is about 4% more in the price, but I consistently get 10% better fuel mileage.

Ethanol is definitly, IMO, another feel-good enviro policy that is costing us big time in so many ways. The fuel pick-up line destruction is but one of them. :mur:

 

[Happyman]

I've had similiar problems with my Stihl saws, lawn mowers and other lawn/garden equipment. I started adding 1 oz per gallon of gas of "SeaFoam" additive about 6 months ago and all my problems went away. Not sure why, but SeaFoam seems to keep the water and ethanol problems at bay in 4 and cycle equipment. Works for me, try it yourself.

 

[dcyrilc]

And the non-oxy is what, in relation to ethanol in the fuel? :confused3:

I can buy ethanol-free gas and get it for 10 cents more per gallon. That is about 4% more in the price, but I consistently get 10% better fuel mileage.

Ethanol is definitly, IMO, another feel-good enviro policy that is costing us big time in so many ways. The fuel pick-up line destruction is but one of them. :mur:

It's my understanding that the EPA is starting to introduce requirements for major design changes in small engines. I can't help but wonder if the higher use of ethanol is intended to help eliminate the older small engines from usage? "Unofficially" requiring people to replace their older equipment with newer regulated ones due to failure.

 

[buzzzmeister]

Get used to the future? Wisconsin's new fuel laws are pushing 2 grades of road gas, 87 octane E20 and a 91 octane E10 'premium.' 92 & 93 octane 'real gas' is getting hard to find.

 

[crazyal]

As to the OP the EPA is testing to see if 15% ethanol will burn OK in engines. The results are due maybe by the end of the month. From what I remember they said it looks good, a hint that the gov may push it from 10% to 15% soon.

There was a place that sold the good old MTBE gas but about a week or so ago they said they couldn't get it any more. I suspect that non ethanol gas will get hard to find soon. I have yet to see a car that doesn't loose 10% fuel economy burning 10%. I don't understand how anyone in their right mind could honestly say burning the same amount of gas and burning 10% ethanol for no reason is better than the ground contamination MTBE causes. Once you figure in all the fuel used by the farmers, the fuel used in the fertilizer, the water needed to make ethanol, etc is just doesn't make sense.

I can understand a flex fuel car that can burn up to 85% ethanol but I have yet to see one pump in this state that has it, hardly worth buying a car that forces you to drive to the next state to take advantage of the "flex".

As far as small engines go I think this is a government trick to force you into replacing those old engines. The newer ones have catalytic converters in them.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Here in Indiana all fuel has 10% or more by law starting Jan 1st. The only exception is aviation and marine fuels. Its sucks. Diesel all has 5% bio crap in it also. You guys who can still get the good stuff are lucky.

Chris

 

[Duffster]

I had just got my Sthil 029 Farmboss back from the dealer. They said the reason I could not get it to run was because the fuel pickup was full of "gelled ethanol type gunk". He said the good ol' government was trying to raise the ethanol content to 15%. He has seen this type of increase of the gell around the pickups in the last 8 months and he sees no end in sight.
If the government increases the ethanol content, what is this going to do to cars and trucks, lawn equipment that are not ethanol rated?? I hope there is an additive someone will come out with to help deal with this atrocity.

Ethanol has been around for a long time. Why would the mechanic just now see "this type of increase of the gell around the pickups in the last 8 months and he sees no end in sight"?

There is a lot of misinformation about ethanol floating around and some of it is 20 years old. I think mechanics are the majority of the culprits.

 

[Wacky]

Ethanol has been around for a long time. Why would the mechanic just now see "this type of increase of the gell around the pickups in the last 8 months and he sees no end in sight"?

There is a lot of misinformation about ethanol floating around and some of it is 20 years old. I think mechanics are the majority of the culprits.[/QUOTE

Could be. Maybe they just recently changed all the other additives in the fuel also, don't know but I am not liking what I am hearing.

 

[crazyal]

Ethanol has been around for a long time. Why would the mechanic just now see "this type of increase of the gell around the pickups in the last 8 months and he sees no end in sight"?

There is a lot of misinformation about ethanol floating around and some of it is 20 years old. I think mechanics are the majority of the culprits.

That's an Ethanol talking point that's not quite true. Ethanol may have been around for a long time but it wasn't widely used as an oxygen additive for gas, MTBE was. So most people were not using it in every piece of equipment they own unlike now. How many small engine dealers understood the problems Ethanol was causing until it was mandated?

 

[Duffster]

That's an Ethanol talking point that's not quite true.

What's not true?

Ethanol has been widely used around here for 20+ years and been mandated in at least some form for as long as I can remember.

As far as talking points go, many anti ethanol talking points have already been posted in this thread.

 

[Duffster]

Could be. Maybe they just recently changed all the other additives in the fuel also, don't know but I am not liking what I am hearing.

That could be. The mechanic at my Stihl dealer says that he sees no difference between the guys that use E10 and the guys that use neat gas. All have problems to a certain degree. He claims the quality of the gasoline is crap period.

 

[gauthier]

I don't think the ethanol thing causing problems is a myth.
My brand new snapper fuel system clogged up with that clear goo after about 20 hours of use last year,my saws and trimmers have had more trouble past year or so than ever,

Last year,the go mart which was the only place around me that sold non ethinated gas put up a sticker saying up to 10 percent ethinal,some pumps say 10 percent,go mart says up to,so it appears from that it could have very little or over 10 percent if they didn't measure right.

Think I'm going to buy some of that marine stable,people say it works,,wonder if there are any draw backs to using it?

Somebody told me that even though the newer motors on lawnmowers and such, fuel lines and stuff were ok and ethinal safe,things like fuel filters desolve to a certain degree and things like that where these motor manufactors,get from supplyers lord knows where,[where ethinal is not used],might be the problem???

 

[Wacky]

That could be. The mechanic at my Stihl dealer says that he sees no difference between the guys that use E10 and the guys that use neat gas. All have problems to a certain degree. He claims the quality of the gasoline is crap period.

Agreed. All I know is that all my gas powered equipment that is well over 5 yrs old have all had an increase of fuel related problems. The future is not looking good if they keep reformulating the fuel. Since all the fuel is crap now...what is the next 5yrs going to bring!!

 

[crazyal]

Duffster you are free to believe what you want. But when small engine repair shops start reporting that they are seeing problems at a rate about 8x of what they had seen in the past in the last year it's not hard to point to the problem.

Talking point (from the National Corn Growers Asst):
Myth: Ethanol blends can't be used in small engines.
FACT: E-10 Unleaded is perfectly acceptable in lawn mowers, snowmobiles, ATVs and other small engines that run on ordinary unleaded gasoline. Virtually every small engine manufacturer, including Briggs & Stratton, Honda, Toro/Lawnboy, Kohler and Snapper, approves the use of E-10 Unleaded in its equipment.

Fact (from Briggs & Stratton):
B&S allows the use of oxygenate blended gasoline where the oxygenate content is up to 10% ethanol (gasohol) or up to 15% MTBE (Methyl tertiary butyl ether) by volume. However, ethanol blended gasoline can attract moisture which leads to separation and formation of acids during storage. Acidic gasoline can damage the fuel system of an engine while in storage. B&S strongly recommends removing ethanol-blended fuels from engine during storage.
Use of gasoline containing higher than the EPA approved limits, for volume percentage of ethanol more than 10%, or MTBE more than 15%, may cause engine damage and will void engine warranty.

Remember the B&S information is for engines they sell today. Unlike a car small engines have breathable gas caps and as they heat and cool moist air can easily mix with the gas.

If you have a report from an unbiased source proving otherwise I would like to read it. The closest thing I could find is a report from Oklahoma State U that the problems seen with the use of Ethanol in small engines could be due to the fact that it's a solvent and is cleaning deposits from the carb at a fast rate and that's what's causing the problem. That wouldn't account for the snot like goo being found (that sounds like the Ethanol is combining with water to me).

I will say this. As the price of oil gets higher refineries are trying to get as much gas and Diesel out of each barrel (and less of lower priced things like tar for roads). As they do the process which they use has also changed over the last few years. So it's possible that these new processes are also having an adverse effect. I haven't read anything to prove this but I'm not sure if anyone has ever looked into it.

 

[Wacky]

Duffster you are free to believe what you want. But when small engine repair shops start reporting that they are seeing problems at a rate about 8x of what they had seen in the past in the last year it's not hard to point to the problem.

Talking point (from the National Corn Growers Asst):
Myth: Ethanol blends can't be used in small engines.
FACT: E-10 Unleaded is perfectly acceptable in lawn mowers, snowmobiles, ATVs and other small engines that run on ordinary unleaded gasoline. Virtually every small engine manufacturer, including Briggs & Stratton, Honda, Toro/Lawnboy, Kohler and Snapper, approves the use of E-10 Unleaded in its equipment.

Fact (from Briggs & Stratton):
B&S allows the use of oxygenate blended gasoline where the oxygenate content is up to 10% ethanol (gasohol) or up to 15% MTBE (Methyl tertiary butyl ether) by volume. However, ethanol blended gasoline can attract moisture which leads to separation and formation of acids during storage. Acidic gasoline can damage the fuel system of an engine while in storage. B&S strongly recommends removing ethanol-blended fuels from engine during storage.
Use of gasoline containing higher than the EPA approved limits, for volume percentage of ethanol more than 10%, or MTBE more than 15%, may cause engine damage and will void engine warranty.

Remember the B&S information is for engines they sell today. Unlike a car small engines have breathable gas caps and as they heat and cool moist air can easily mix with the gas.

If you have a report from an unbiased source proving otherwise I would like to read it. The closest thing I could find is a report from Oklahoma State U that the problems seen with the use of Ethanol in small engines could be due to the fact that it's a solvent and is cleaning deposits from the carb at a fast rate and that's what's causing the problem. That wouldn't account for the snot like goo being found (that sounds like the Ethanol is combining with water to me).

I will say this. As the price of oil gets higher refineries are trying to get as much gas and Diesel out of each barrel (and less of lower priced things like tar for roads). As they do the process which they use has also changed over the last few years. So it's possible that these new processes are also having an adverse effect. I haven't read anything to prove this but I'm not sure if anyone has ever looked into it.

Good read:thumbsup:! Very informing.