220v outlet for welder powered by (2) 20 amp breakers

[GeneV]

Guys, here's a thread I started on fume extractors: https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/welding/429959-dyi-fume-extractor-ideas.html

 

[DieselBound]

Actually, another thought here about gfci's...so I know they're code for 110v outlets in the garage. I don't think they're required for 220v though, kind of strange actually. Any of you have 220v gfci's?

Here's some fun (quick- there's a TON of debate out there) reading on this:

21.8(B) Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. Other Than Dwelling Units.

Receptacles are key here. In general if you have corded devices plugging/un-plugging then there's a concern that cords can become damaged and present a hazard to one's person. The wording of the code is a mess, especially to a lay person.

My garage and shop was built about three years ago, right on the cusp of the 2017 electrical code changes that expanded GFCI use/requirements. The circuit for my compressor, which is hardwired, did not require GFCI protection (it was passed): the 2017 code says that this is OK. At that time I put off a circuit for a welder because I first wanted to find out where I would use one (took me a while to get a feel for my space use), as well as come up with the funds. I JUST purchased a welder (and a plasma cutter) and installed a 50 amp GFCI protected circuit (6awg, 2 wire).:dance1: A 50 amp GFCI breaker added about $80 to the cost of this circuit. I figure that it will help my commitment to my wife of her not having a dead husband

"Code" is "minimum."

 

[grsthegreat]

Gfci is not required on 240v shop equipment. Only on 120v outlets.

 

[DieselBound]

Gfci is not required on 240v shop equipment. Only on 120v outlets.

From the link I posted above:

2017 Code Language:

210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All single-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 50 amperes or less and three-phase receptacles rated 150 volts to ground or less, 100 amperes or less installed in the following locations shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

As mentioned, it's awkward wording for a lay person.

In my case I'm single phase. I'm 50 amps or less. AND, each conductor IS 150 volts to ground or less. I am not an electrician, in which case I cannot say whether I would only need to test ONE conductor (which would be under the 150 volt limit).

I don't think that a person has any license to proclaim what code means (if it's seemingly ambiguous) IF they are not a licensed electrician.

 

[grsthegreat]

Your circuit is 240 volt. They dont measure each leg. Only 120v circuits (all 120 v circuits) in any shop or garage have to be gfci protected. A 240 volt welder or air compressor does not need to be GFCI protected.

The 2020 code updates this to include 240 volt circuits. But this may or not be adopted.

 

[ultrarunner]

Does that include a single dedicated outlet behind a garage freezer and a dedicated above 8' outlet for door opener?

All of my code books date from the 1980's when I was heavy into additions and remodels ..

As a side note I love reading home inspection reports on 100 year old homes with knob and tube, copper gas lines, no tempered glass in doors, etc.

 

[DieselBound]

A circuit that's dedicated to a machine -not a plug-in- doesn't require a GFCI, that is my reading (all code seems pretty clear on this). Doesn't matter what it is (welder or compressor).

A receptacle that is for an EV DOES require a GFCI protected circuit. The way I read this is that it's really the same for my situation, a plug-in (welder). The theory is the same.

Curious, are you an electrician? I'm intrigued by this issue and am thinking about asking my electrician: though, I actually taught him something that he wasn't all that up on (pertaining to wiring generators for dedicated power)

 

[grsthegreat]

Does that include a single dedicated outlet behind a garage freezer and a dedicated above 8' outlet for door opener?

All of my code books date from the 1980's when I was heavy into additions and remodels ..

ALL 120v outlets. Including refrig or freezer and garage door opener.

 

[DieselBound]

Does that include a single dedicated outlet behind a garage freezer and a dedicated above 8' outlet for door opener?

All of my code books date from the 1980's when I was heavy into additions and remodels ..

I think it applies for anything that's plugged in. For sure the freezer. I'd have to look at the circuits for my garage door motors, but I think they're on GFCI circuits as well. I still feel that there's no way you can go wrong by going more than code (yeah, it can cost a few bucks more).

 

[grsthegreat]

A circuit that's dedicated to a machine -not a plug-in- doesn't require a GFCI, that is my reading (all code seems pretty clear on this). Doesn't matter what it is (welder or compressor).

A receptacle that is for an EV DOES require a GFCI protected circuit. The way I read this is that it's really the same for my situation, a plug-in (welder). The theory is the same.

Curious, are you an electrician? I'm intrigued by this issue and am thinking about asking my electrician: though, I actually taught him something that he wasn't all that up on (pertaining to wiring generators for dedicated power)

im an electrical contractor. Different states use different parts of the NEC. Here in Idaho they never adopt the entire code. But an electric vehicle charger does NOT have to be gfci protected under current codes.

 

[ultrarunner]

A circuit that's dedicated to a machine -not a plug-in- doesn't require a GFCI, that is my reading (all code seems pretty clear on this). Doesn't matter what it is (welder or compressor).

A receptacle that is for an EV DOES require a GFCI protected circuit. The way I read this is that it's really the same for my situation, a plug-in (welder). The theory is the same.

Curious, are you an electrician? I'm intrigued by this issue and am thinking about asking my electrician: though, I actually taught him something that he wasn't all that up on (pertaining to wiring generators for dedicated power)

No...pulled lots of owner builder permits and always running circuits at the hospital... it's interesting how 25 years ago it was all about isolated grounds and more recent how critical life/safety equipment should not use GFCI outlets/circuits. Something about tens of thousands of dollars in meds or tissue in a crygenic freezer Should Never be plugged into a GFCI

 

[DieselBound]

One can always come up with something or another for why their position is "correct." I'm pretty sure that anyone working in the industry can attest to it really coming down to who is doing the inspection.

As I mentioned: Code is the MINIMUM.

EV WILL see a change in code:

https://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/TIA_70_17_2.pdf

I agree with this move. And I further will agree that this should also be applied to situations such as I have. Oh, and NO, I don't sell or have any interest in any related products or services.

 

[grsthegreat]

If you read that code...it specifically states 150 volts OR LESS. AND. 50 amps or less.

This is how it is now. Current ev chargers are 40-50 amp, 240 volt so dont need GFCI protection. Now if the 2020 codes are adopted, and they arnt always adopted, this will change.

 

[DieselBound]

Will be interesting to see... To me, it makes sense (why be inconsistent in how theory is applied?). I get it that there are opposing industry views, associated with their own profit motives: builders don't want to incur extra expense and the folks manufacturing the electrical devices want to sell more (and bureaucrats just like the power of changing things).

I'll keep my welder circuit GFCI protected: it might save my rear if I do something stupid like hit my power cord with my plasma cutter. If code comes along that says that this is problematic then I'll change.

 

[grsthegreat]

Theres nothing wrong with having them GFCI protected, its just that i personally hate forcing someone to gfci their freezer, having the gfci fail , and lose $1,000 + Worth of food. Believe me ive seen this happen too many times to count. And come on, why does a garage door opener need to be gfci protected. Its nuts.

Gfci of 120 receptacles In garage or shop was required due to the fact that someone could plug an extension cord into outlet and run a saw, or some sort, outside. I can see that. But no one is going to plug into a 240 ev outlet and run a cord outside and run a saw. Thats why 240’s were exempt. Now they just want to regulate us to death. Just yesterday i got a call from an old client that their lake pump failed. No water in house. The GFCI breaker had failed. He went to home depot and lowes.....no one has any in stock. Just try to find a homeline gfci right now. He had to bypass gfci or not have water. Yet hes still alive. He ordered a new breaker on amazon.....well see.

And its just amazing that there are millions of older houses out there without a single GFCI or ark fault breaker and the occupants are still alive.

 

[DieselBound]

Yes, there's definitely nuance. I haven't had the GFCI on my freezers trip yet: been running trip-free for about 2 1/2 years. My bigger concern/issue has been with losing line power: rural power can be a bit unstable; I have a backup generator (though it's manually started and switched) to address that; power losses typically happen in the cooler parts of the year.

Agree that there's little reason for door openers to be on GFCI. No nuance provided in the code... Might be that some folks run other outlets downstream? (no idea if that's OK with code or not- I believe my door openers are on their own circuit, which, of course, wouldn't under anything but the most insane instances expose me to any personal threat ((could I be up near them, the receptacles and associated cords, and do something stupid? I suppose... I was up near them when I installed the circuit for my welder, but, as can be figured, I avoided the "potential" disaster)).

Oh! Speaking of food spoilage and silly codes etc... My "energy efficient" refrigerator would experience frost-over and result in the blocking of cooling from the lower freezer part to the upper fridge part. Research turned up this to not be all that uncommon. Took the advice of an appliance repair guy and disabled the "energy saver" function (associated with defrost): if something can be programmed it can usually be unprogrammed! Haven't had any issues since. Food loss and the energy to defrost and cool the fridge back down likely exceeded the costs for operating in non-energy-efficient mode.

I appreciate the sharing of attained knowledge. Learning theory is one of my favorite parts.

 

[jaxs]

My gosh how time fly's. Seem's like only a couple of weeks since Gene put this thread to bed but it has been 2 months. Oh well,since the thread returned from the grave and we find ourselves back at the wall again,I have a question about protection devices. I've lost count of times I've come in contact with live circuits and I'm still here. My understanding is that 10mA (0.01 amp) current can kill or injure. I've seen no mention of voltage but I'm here to tell you voltage make's all the difference when it come's to the hurt put on you. I've made contact with both hots on 220v several times (the path was usually from finger to arm but a few times it was one hand to the other (through the heart unless it detoured). I had one dose from flouresent lit a sign:shocked: that I will remember from now on but aside from feeling like my tongue sprouted whiskers and tasting like I had rusty nails in my mouth for a while,I didn't suffer any aftermath. Of course there have been countless door bells,Christmas lights,extension cords and the like. I'll reserve one involving my older brother,an electric fence and a dare. I don't feel like doing any demonstrations but has stats been developed to say how many people are killed out of a certain # of incidents?

 

[jaxs]

Theres nothing wrong with having them GFCI protected, its just that i personally hate forcing someone to gfci their freezer, having the gfci fail , and lose $1,000 + Worth of food. Believe me ive seen this happen too many times to count. And come on, why does a garage door opener need to be gfci protected. Its nuts.

Gfci of 120 receptacles In garage or shop was required due to the fact that someone could plug an extension cord into outlet and run a saw, or some sort, outside. I can see that. But no one is going to plug into a 240 ev outlet and run a cord outside and run a saw. Thats why 240’s were exempt. Now they just want to regulate us to death. Just yesterday i got a call from an old client that their lake pump failed. No water in house. The GFCI breaker had failed. He went to home depot and lowes.....no one has any in stock. Just try to find a homeline gfci right now. He had to bypass gfci or not have water. Yet hes still alive. He ordered a new breaker on amazon.....well see.

And its just amazing that there are millions of older houses out there without a single GFCI or ark fault breaker and the occupants are still alive.

As soon as you learn to appreciate EPA approved "SAFETY" gas cans,benifits and life enrichment afforded by GFI will become very clear.

 

[ultrarunner]

Theres nothing wrong with having them GFCI protected, its just that i personally hate forcing someone to gfci their freezer, having the gfci fail , and lose $1,000 + Worth of food. Believe me ive seen this happen too many times to count. And come on, why does a garage door opener need to be gfci protected. Its nuts.

Gfci of 120 receptacles In garage or shop was required due to the fact that someone could plug an extension cord into outlet and run a saw, or some sort, outside. I can see that. But no one is going to plug into a 240 ev outlet and run a cord outside and run a saw. Thats why 240’s were exempt. Now they just want to regulate us to death. Just yesterday i got a call from an old client that their lake pump failed. No water in house. The GFCI breaker had failed. He went to home depot and lowes.....no one has any in stock. Just try to find a homeline gfci right now. He had to bypass gfci or not have water. Yet hes still alive. He ordered a new breaker on amazon.....well see.

And its just amazing that there are millions of older houses out there without a single GFCI or ark fault breaker and the occupants are still alive.

As a property manager way too much time over the years spent on GFCI.

I ask the caller what they were doing just before the incident...

One elderly lady said she had just plug in her vacuum and when she turned it on nothing... she called to report a bad outlet... well it was a frayed cord on her vacuum... so GFCI worked as intended as often is the case...

Had to fend off several claims for spoiled refrigerated food... none were the GFCI fault... little humor here... dirty defrost drain dripping most frequent but also have to check GFCI with all of the power interruption we now have in CA... for whatever reason they sometimes trip when power is interrupted...

What do you tell a tenant upset with spoilage when they are the only one in the neighborhood with a tripped GFCI after a power incident? I tell them their renters insurance will cover it but few have it.

Nuisance tripping seems to be worse with some brands than others...

Maybe I will just move back to my 1922 house and screw in fuses and two prong outlets... just wish there were more than one per room and the one in the bathroom is part of the light fixture!

 

[DieselBound]

As soon as you learn to appreciate EPA approved "SAFETY" gas cans,benifits and life enrichment afforded by GFI will become very clear.

Pretty sure we should still be eating lead as well...

I am in a rural area where what I do can have very little affect on someone else. I can burn my house down and it's of no threat to anyone else (other than those residing in said house). Go to an urban/city location and it's much different. Codes have value. And Codes are really an attempt to standardize knowledge of good practices.

You're fine until you're not. Keep in mind that as you age your physical abilities decline. Your heart may not be able to handle electrical disturbances like it once did.

Having hot-wire fencing means I can appreciate the impact of high voltage:thumbsup:

Oh, and YES, I HATE those stupid gas cans! I solved that issue with a large on-site tank of diesel. (the push-button can I have for my saws, thankfully, works very well- I've bitched about many of the others, for sure)