4 in 1 bucket vs grapple, which would you buy and why?

[GILLYS CHILLI FARM AUSTRA]

CPM of Qld, they were offering the BH92 on both the L4400 and MX5100 until january but they are not now permitted under OH & S reasons of which they wont explain.

They are going to bring in the L4600 later this year that will have a BH...or you can try looking at the L3800 with a BH77. Depends what you need to do.
Im about to order the MX5100 with a subframe if i can get it that way in case they change their minds later if the price is right but without the BH now as i think the L3800 is going to be too small for me. Grapples are great but 5 times too expensive in Australia than USA.

 

[GILLYS CHILLI FARM AUSTRA]

CPM When i asked for a price in Melbourne on the B26 TLB the price was about $50,000 saying it was more heavy duty than the L4400 and other models.

But i would ring up another dealer for another opinion on frame strength of the MX angainst the L ...... sounds like mis-informed advice from your dealer.

 

[GILLYS CHILLI FARM AUSTRA]

CPM have you seen any BOLT ON GRAPPLES for sale in Qld or the price? Should be much cheaper than the pricey Grapple Bucket prices.

 

[tonyoz]

Give Norn Buckets in Brisbane a ring,they should be able to sort the buckets you want without having the dealers margin on top,and quick hitch as well. :thumbsup:

 

[GILLYS CHILLI FARM AUSTRA]

Thanks Tonyoz...do you know anyone in Lilydale Melbourne area who might have them too.?

 

[IslandTractor]

I have both a 4n1 and a grapple. I agree the 4n1 is like a Swiss Army Knife or Leatherman. Does a lot of tasks but none as well as a dedicated tool. On the other hand, a light duty grapple is a dedicated tool and does work extremely effectively.

If I was a contractor trailering my tractor to jobs I would probably want a 4n1 but if I am at home and can switch implements conveniently then in my experience the grapple is mounted far more often than the 4n1.

The main weakness if the 4n1 is that it picks up "grapple" loads from the bottom. One big branch is about all it can grasp as anything below that will not be compressed due to the pinching nature of load securing. A grapple has fixed bottom tunes do gravity holds the load in place. I can load literally 5-10 times as much brush into my grapple as into the 4n1.

Also, a perfectly good grapple can be had for $500-1000 while 4n1 costs start at close to $2000. Finally, as others have noted, it isn't hard to damage a 4n1 and repair is expensive. Grapples are very hard to damage and repair is done with heat and hammer.

 

[greg_g]

The main weakness if the 4n1 is that it picks up "grapple" loads from the bottom. One big branch is about all it can grasp as anything below that will not be compressed due to the pinching nature of load securing.

As I was learning to operate my 4-in-1, that too was my initial impression. I was trying to pick up a pile like a kid grabs a stuffed animal out of a mahine; from the 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock directions. But as time went on, I realized that was simple inexperience speaking. To increase the amount of brush a 4-in-1 can pick up is just a matter of technique. I first use the closed bucket (full curl at ground level) to push/roll the pile forward so it becomes more compressed. If further compression is desired, I lift the loader move forward, rotate the bucket to full dump, lower bucket back to ground level, and pull the pile back. Then to pick it up, I
1. open the jaws all the way on the near side of the pile,
2. set the curl so the bottom jaw is vertical AND at ground level (think 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock)
3. then close the jaw as I'm driving forward.

Closing the jaws around the pile from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock while pushing forward - results in a MUCH bigger bite.

//greg//

 

[IslandTractor]

As I was learning to operate my 4-in-1, that too was my initial impression. But as time went on, I realized that was just inexperience speaking. To increase the amount of brush a 4-in-1 can pick up is just a matter of technique. I first use the bucket to push/roll the pile forward so it becomes more compressed. Then I open the jaws, set the curl so the bottom jaw is vertical relative to ground, then close the jaw as I'm driving forward. Takes a MUCH bigger bite that way.

//greg//

I am sure that does work but would still gobble less than a grapple especially with thick branches or logs as the pinch closure simply makes it impossible to hold anything below whatever object is jammed in the top.

I use my 4n1 but not when my primary task is brush. I like it mounted with my backhoe so I can fill in the hole after stump removal and carry the stump away.

 

[crazyal]

So does this mean we can add grapple vs 4 in 1 bucket to the list that includes R4 vs R1, HST vs gear, etc. :laughing: It's nice to read everyone's opinion on the subject.

 

[IslandTractor]

CPM have you seen any BOLT ON GRAPPLES for sale in Qld or the price? Should be much cheaper than the pricey Grapple Bucket prices.

Bolt on grapples for buckets are a very reasonable and very economical alternative to a real grapple. While building a true grapple from scratch would be a fairly major fabrication job, a simple bolt on grapple could be put together by an amateur welder without much difficulty. The upper grapple arm does not do most of the work as the load is supported by the bucket and the grapple arm just keeps it from falling out. Therefore the upper arm does not need to be heavy duty and while a nice computer/plasma cut curved tine looks great, you could fabricate a perfectly functional upper arm with just pipe and angle iron (not sure what you Aussie's call those things). The hydraulic cylinders can obviously be accessed from multiple sources too. The key issue would be getting the geometry right but working that out with plywood or even cardboard should be pretty easy. If you look on the US ebay site you'll see upper arm grapple kits for buckets being sold for roughly $300. Not sure about shipping etc but that should give you a rough idea (multiplied by the down under mark up!).

 

[CPM]

So does this mean we can add grapple vs 4 in 1 bucket to the list that includes R4 vs R1, HST vs gear, etc. :laughing: It's nice to read everyone's opinion on the subject.

Yeah, pretty broad, huh? But in my defence, I'm a newbie buyer and user of this forum so just need a little slack - variety is the spice of life n' all that:thumbsup:

Popped into a Kioti dealer the other day... but that's another thread!

 

[IslandTractor]

Yeah, pretty broad, huh? But in my defence, I'm a newbie buyer and user of this forum so just need a little slack - variety is the spice of life n' all that:thumbsup:

Popped into a Kioti dealer the other day... but that's another thread!

You are asking all the right questions at the right time in your purchase decision. For those of us who did not grow up around tractors, it takes at least a few months of education to sort out what is best for our own circumstances. TBN is great for that but do be wary that we are really really good at spending other peoples money. No one could ever claim that advice on TBN will get you a machine smaller than needed or that we would recommend trying to get by with too few specialized implements.

By the way, as you are looking to possibly add a backhoe, you might consider heavier tractors. I know the Kubota MX will handle a BH fine but the Kubota line is generally light and while that can be an advantage for mowing, it is not an advantage for things like BH work or ground engaging tasks. Your other thread notes you are considering a Kioti EX50. We don't have the EX in the US but I suspect it is our DK line. I have the DK40se HST with a 9 foot BH and the combo is well matched and very effective. I use it on a total of about 20 acres and it is more than adequate for that size land plot.

 

[CPM]

You are asking all the right questions at the right time in your purchase decision. For those of us who did not grow up around tractors, it takes at least a few months of education to sort out what is best for our own circumstances. TBN is great for that but do be wary that we are really really good at spending other peoples money. No one could ever claim that advice on TBN will get you a machine smaller than needed or that we would recommend trying to get by with too few specialized implements.

By the way, as you are looking to possibly add a backhoe, you might consider heavier tractors. I know the Kubota MX will handle a BH fine but the Kubota line is generally light and while that can be an advantage for mowing, it is not an advantage for things like BH work or ground engaging tasks. Your other thread notes you are considering a Kioti EX50. We don't have the EX in the US but I suspect it is our DK line. I have the DK40se HST with a 9 foot BH and the combo is well matched and very effective. I use it on a total of about 20 acres and it is more than adequate for that size land plot.

That's one large rock you've picked up there. How many Kilos (pounds) you reckon?

I've compared the weight of the EX50 and the MX5100 and there's not a lot in it - not sure if the Kioti is lighter here or the 5100 is a beefier Kabota.

Looks like you have a nice setup. I'll have to add implements over time.

 

[IslandTractor]

That's one large rock you've picked up there. How many Kilos (pounds) you reckon?

I've compared the weight of the EX50 and the MX5100 and there's not a lot in it - not sure if the Kioti is lighter here or the 5100 is a beefier Kabota.

Looks like you have a nice setup. I'll have to add implements over time.

I don't recall exactly but did measure the hunk of granite once and did the calculation. About 2500lbs as I recall. I remember that the rear was light even with the BH as ballast.

I think the MX line is beefier than some of the other Kubotas.

 

[GILLYS CHILLI FARM AUSTRA]

DITTO..

Thats a big rock with only the BH on back. very impressed.

 

[IslandTractor]

DITTO..

Thats a big rock with only the BH on back. very impressed.

What is more impressive is that I did not know the rock was anywhere near that big because it was buried. Only a little "tip of the iceberg" was above ground and hitting my flail mower blades as I drove over it. I inserted the grapple bottom tines along side it and pushed down then clamped the rock with the upper grapple arm. I then curled and lifted. I won't say that it popped out but I never let go and just wiggled it out of the ground. I was rather astonished to see how big it was. Bent one of the grapple upper tines as in fact only that one upper tine was actually in contact with the rock! I think the experience says quite a lot about the power of the KL401 Kioti loader (2700+lbs lift, 3700lb breakout) and also how tough a $500 mild steel light duty grapple is.:thumbsup: I heated and hammered the grapple tine back into position and later reinforced both of them with a gusset. Better than new now.

 

[Redneck in training]

The 4 in 1 is definitely more popular in Australia. I saw a lot of those while working there. I don't have personal experience with it but it seems to me that there is one thing that could make it advantageous for certain tasks. When the jaw is open it could be used as light bulldozer. At least I saw such a design. I doubt that it will push hard ground but it will definitely push loose material.

 

[IslandTractor]

The 4 in 1 is definitely more popular in Australia. I saw a lot of those while working there. I don't have personal experience with it but it seems to me that there is one thing that could make it advantageous for certain tasks. When the jaw is open it could be used as light bulldozer. At least I saw such a design. I doubt that it will push hard ground but it will definitely push loose material.

Yes a 4n1 can be a "light" bulldozer but it is important to emphasize the "light". The issue is not the bucket but the tractor FEL arms which are long and spindlely compared to the short thick arms of a real bulldozer. Pushing loose dirt is one thing but using the pseudo dozer blade to push on a stump is not such a great idea. Even worse is putting the blade into unknown ground where you might hit a rock or buried stump off center when you have a fair amount of momentum/speed. That could damage the loader itself.

As I mentioned, I have a 4n1 and have tried this bulldozing function. It is useful for pushing over brush but I imagine just the plain bucket would do about as well. Using it to spread dirt is not really much more efficient than simply back dragging the dirt. Likewise dumping spoils or dirt without dumping the bucket by opening the clamshell is a "feature" but it really is not so important. The main functions of a 4n1 in my hands at least are 1) standard bucket duties and 2) somewhat useful but inefficient grapple function. The only time I mount it is when doing backhoe work as I do appreciate the ability to fill the hole and then clamp and drive off with whatever I dug out. Even those functions could be done with a standard bucket and some chain but not needing to get off the tractor is nice.

I think 4n1 buckets are really great for contractors who have a lot of different tasks to perform while at a remote site. That is where it earns it's keep IMO. The problem is that 4n1 buckets to be useful at all need to be pretty well built so they are expensive. If you are operating close to home, it makes more sense to save $$$ and just use dedicated quick attach implements like the standard bucket and a separate grapple (or just add a grapple to the standard bucket).

 

[tonyoz]

Thanks Tonyoz...do you know anyone in Lilydale Melbourne area who might have them too.?

Try Kerfab at Kerang Vic,their website looks like it's got every thing you want and need.

 

[GILLYS CHILLI FARM AUSTRA]

Thanks Tonyoz