$500,000.00 fine and/or 5 years in federal prison for a first offense. John Deere

adventure bob · Apr 26, 2017

Ok so here's a general question for the group: If you had access, if the software was unlocked would you even know what to do with it? If you own a ford mustang, ford has opened the software for tuners, but I'll bet a beer that 99% of the people on here wouldn't have a clue as to what they were looking at, much less know what to do with it. Most folks on here have enough problems with error codes, much less a fuel or timing map for a 200HP diesel tractor. This argument seems to be more emotional than factual or of actual concern to guys using tractor for a living. Last I checked JD is still selling a boatload of tractors.

aczlan · Apr 26, 2017

adventure bob said:
Ok so here's a general question for the group: If you had access, if the software was unlocked would you even know what to do with it? If you own a ford mustang, ford has opened the software for tuners, but I'll bet a beer that 99% of the people on here wouldn't have a clue as to what they were looking at, much less know what to do with it. Most folks on here have enough problems with error codes, much less a fuel or timing map for a 200HP diesel tractor. This argument seems to be more emotional than factual or of actual concern to guys using tractor for a living. Last I checked JD is still selling a boatload of tractors.

That's not the issue at hand here. The issue at hand is that Deere has made it so that you cannot replace many electronic components that talk to the main computer unless you have the John Deere software. Additionally, as I understand it many software diagnostics to make sure the computer and the things connected to it are working properly require the same John Deere software. Without the software all you can say is yep it won't start or it won't do X, but you can't reproduce the problem or do many of the tests to diagnose it in narrow it down so you know exactly what part you need to buy
They only want their dealers have the John Deere software and so if a farmer is in the middle of harvest and they need to get a tractor fixed they have to wait for somebody from the dealership to get out there install the new part whereas as in many cases they have a perfectly competent mechanic in house who could do it just fine but Deere will not let them do it.

Aaron Z

dnw64 · Apr 26, 2017

aczlan said:
That's not the issue at hand here. The issue at hand is that Deere has made it so that you cannot replace many electronic components that talk to the main computer unless you have the John Deere software. Additionally, as I understand it many software diagnostics to make sure the computer and the things connected to it are working properly require the same John Deere software. Without the software all you can say is yep it won't start or it won't do X, but you can't reproduce the problem or do many of the tests to diagnose it in narrow it down so you know exactly what part you need to buy
They only want their dealers have the John Deere software and so if a farmer is in the middle of harvest and they need to get a tractor fixed they have to wait for somebody from the dealership to get out there install the new part whereas as in many cases they have a perfectly competent mechanic in house who could do it just fine but Deere will not let them do it.

Aaron Z

Exactly.

not2old · Apr 27, 2017

I know that the idiots in power here are dumb enough to let the factories get away with almost anything, but I didn't think the U.S. authorities were that complacent. They didn't allow auto manufacurers to do this years ago. That's why all cars have a universal OBD port. Some of them may be cheating on this as I know one of the previous posts on newer Volvos is accurate.

adventure bob · Apr 27, 2017

aczlan, it is the point: if JD backed away and said "you have full and open access", most people couldn't maintain the tractor. they'd have no clue, the software is too complex. Now if everyone wants the ability to have the tools and interfaces JD has, then that's a whole different argument than is being made. If you want the convenience of all the things the JD dealer has your gonna have to pay for that. They have developed a capability that adds convenience and value, if you want that, there's a $$$ figure associated with that. If you just want access to the software, that's a cheaper thing to ask for, however if you want tools that make access easy, someone has to develop those and that cost money. I don't think your ever going to get a $100 scan tool like there are for cars, for a tractor. The guys who do mobile maint spend $10-$12 THOUSAND on their scan tools for heavy equipment to include big tractors and thousands in training for those guys to be able to use them.

Colgate2004 · Apr 27, 2017

An observation, and a question:

1) OkieDave sounds like he knows what he's talking about. Might want to listen to him. :thumbsup:

2) Someone asked before but no one responded (maybe because no one knows?) - does this software shenanigans apply to CUTs & SCUTs, or just to larger ag machines?
How computerized are JD CUTs? I'd imagine there's some software directing operation of the engine to ensure peak efficiency, minimize emissions, etc., but the otherwise the machines seem pretty simply mechanical...

OkieDave · Apr 27, 2017

I may not know what I'm doing, but odds are somebody does. That's the beauty of the open-source/free software* movement: somebody, somewhere can figure it out, and publishes an alternate version of the firmware. You'll see it in all sorts of fields: it's common to find alternate firmware for cell phones, but you can get firmware for all sorts of cars and trucks, digital cameras, video game consoles, and yes, even tractors, as linked above.

If Deere were to open it up, you'd find a lot of experimentation. It's common in the homebuilt/experimental aircraft world: for instance, Lightspeed Aviation gives users the ability to program their electronic ignition systems without using custom firmware by simply updating the tables. And so people do; they experiment to get the results they want, then publish the results.

Markets tend to route around failure. If Deere wants to abuse its customers, it shouldn't be surprised when somebody finds a way to get around that roadblock...and with the internet, we have an entire world of experimenters to find a way. It only takes one.

* Free as in speech, not free as in beer. Sometimes, it's referred to as software libre vs. software gratis, which also highlights the difference.

aczlan · Apr 27, 2017

adventure bob said:
aczlan, it is the point: if JD backed away and said "you have full and open access", most people couldn't maintain the tractor. they'd have no clue, the software is too complex. Now if everyone wants the ability to have the tools and interfaces JD has, then that's a whole different argument than is being made. If you want the convenience of all the things the JD dealer has your gonna have to pay for that. They have developed a capability that adds convenience and value, if you want that, there's a $$$ figure associated with that. If you just want access to the software, that's a cheaper thing to ask for, however if you want tools that make access easy, someone has to develop those and that cost money. I don't think your ever going to get a $100 scan tool like there are for cars, for a tractor. The guys who do mobile maint spend $10-$12 THOUSAND on their scan tools for heavy equipment to include big tractors and thousands in training for those guys to be able to use them.

Yes but the point is they don't make the software available to anyone other than a dealer. You can get training up the wazoo but unless you are a dealer you cannot get the software to work on your own tractor. As such you're stuck working with the dealer to get anything done on it and you can't have your in-house mechanic have the software to fix the tractor even if they are better trained than the dealer mechanics.

Aaron Z

adventure bob · Apr 28, 2017

So how are the mobile maint companies getting work done? These guys are working JD, CASE, IH, Cat, Link Belt... you name it and they're not "dealerships" They're third party maint operations.

aczlan · Apr 28, 2017

adventure bob said:
So how are the mobile maint companies getting work done? These guys are working JD, CASE, IH, Cat, Link Belt... you name it and they're not "dealerships" They're third party maint operations.

You would have to ask them, here is what Deere has to say: