74 hp skid vs 74 hp hoe for building tiny acreage?

[Carl_NH]

Rerod - the footer design you showed we call here in the NE a "floating slab" and I have done two of these on a barn and garage. The footer is 24" deep x 18" wide with rebar in the whole floor and in the trench tied together. It was all poured as one slab.

We chose these due to ledge - and they have worked out fine - just make sure you have a good level pad, compacted stone, and rebar all tied in.

Bottom line- it takes more concrete but less forming time. If you don't have any subsurface issues and easy digging - dig a trench down 4', pour a footer then a wall either block or concrete.

On your choice of machines, I'd vote TLB also, but we all have biases based on our equipment and experience.

 

[shooterdon]

I'm leaning towards a tractor with a ssqa bucket, but a FEL that will lift 1000 to full height is probably to heavy to mow the lawn with later..

I'm guessing I need to stay below 3000 lbs tractor weight to finish mow, but how much will the FELL lift? Plus, will the hydraulics of this smaller tractor be enough to run skid steer attachments?

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If you are looking at attachments that run with hydraulic pumps on the FEL, you will not be able to do that with a smaller tractor. You can run things like a grapple or hydraulic plow using a third function or diverter valve set up. Look at the flow rates for the SSQA attachments you are considering and the flow rate of the tractor (do not include the flow for the power steering pump)

Mowing the lawn with a compact tractor is not ideal. For what you will pay for a mower deck. you can add a couple of grand and get a nice zero turn that will be twice as fast and be more maneuverable. Taking a mower deck off to do real tractor work gets old quick.

IMO, the TYM 2515 offers good back for the buck. It is rated at 2200 lbs on the FEL and over 3000 lbs on the 3PH.

 

[Vigo327]

Im not sure on a weight limit for finish mowing (comes down to tires mostly, i think) but i generally agree that a mower deck for a tractor is a pita compared to a zero turn. I have a 54” drive-over belly mower i use with my Kubota B6100 and it does ok but i cant leave it on all the time and swapping it out is a little annoying.

I think a belly mower is only really ok on a tractor if you can leave it on all the time because you dont mind the width or the lack of ground clearance. If youre going to take it off much youd be better off having a separate mowing machine.

 

[rerod]

If you are looking at attachments that run with hydraulic pumps on the FEL, you will not be able to do that with a smaller tractor. You can run things like a grapple or hydraulic plow using a third function or diverter valve set up. Look at the flow rates for the SSQA attachments you are considering and the flow rate of the tractor (do not include the flow for the power steering pump)

I figured that would be the case.. I imagine I would need a 74 hp tractor in order to have enough flow rate to run skid steer attachments.. Just guessing again.

 

[shooterdon]

rerod, there was only one skid steer attachment I have yearned for and I am glad I did not want it badly enough to piss away a bunch of money.

Nice to have and need are not the same. IIRC, I advised you to make a list of jobs you want done and the cost to have, or rent the right equipment; or to contract some out. It helped me firm up my thinking when I saw the numbers.

For example, there are those who will talk about the backhoe attachment they use once or twice a year for an hour and how glad they are they have it...and you should have one too. For most, that is an $8000 waste of money that is also a PITA to mount, dismount and store. I have twenty acres and have had $1000 of BH work done in 12 years. There are times I wish I had one, but I am glad I don't. It was the right call for me.

 

[rerod]

Rerod - the footer design you showed we call here in the NE a "floating slab" and I have done two of these on a barn and garage. The footer is 24" deep x 18" wide with rebar in the whole floor and in the trench tied together. It was all poured as one slab.

We chose these due to ledge - and they have worked out fine - just make sure you have a good level pad, compacted stone, and rebar all tied in.

Bottom line- it takes more concrete but less forming time. If you don't have any subsurface issues and easy digging - dig a trench down 4', pour a footer then a wall either block or concrete.

Lots of names, but if you look closer at the design I posted, the slab is separate from the "frost protected footing" I'll call it.. I'm not going to try any flatwork, but figured I could DIY the footings, build the garage, and then hire a good finisher to pour the slab. Ive been told a floating slab is considerably cheaper then digging below the frost-line, not to mention the need for wall forms when placing footers 4' down.

 

[eKretz]

rerod, there was only one skid steer attachment I have yearned for and I am glad I did not want it badly enough to piss away a bunch of money.

Nice to have and need are not the same. IIRC, I advised you to make a list of jobs you want done and the cost to have, or rent the right equipment; or to contract some out. It helped me firm up my thinking when I saw the numbers.

For example, there are those who will talk about the backhoe attachment they use once or twice a year for an hour and how glad they are they have it...and you should have one too. For most, that is an $8000 waste of money that is also a PITA to mount, dismount and store. I have twenty acres and have had $1000 of BH work done in 12 years. There are times I wish I had one, but I am glad I don't. It was the right call for me.

Everyone needs to decide that for themselves, it's a very individual thing. And so is the amount of money spent. I generally sit patiently watching the secondhand marketplace for attachments, and pounce on a good deal when I see it. It's easy to spend maybe 1/10 the cost of new that way. Many times I see these outrageous new costs quoted in comparisons, but new cost is not what many of us are paying. This makes a huge difference in how much sense something makes.

Personally, I've got a small JD tractor with a loader, mower deck and box blade that I use for most yard tasks and finish grading/levelling. I have a Ford 555D TLB that I use for tree and stump removal, trenching, carrying/transporting heavy machinery, rough grading/levelling and all sorts of other tasks. I find the combination to be outstanding for my needs. To each their own.

 

[gmgm]

From the requirements: perhaps you need a mini/midi-excavator first for building work.

Then later, sell the excavator and purchase a tractor.

 

[rerod]

From the requirements: perhaps you need a mini/midi-excavator first for building work.

Then later, sell the excavator and purchase a tractor.

I can rent one locally. So that kills the need for a backhoe

 

[rScotty]

Lots of names, but if you look closer at the design I posted, the slab is separate from the "frost protected footing" I'll call it.. I'm not going to try any flatwork, but figured I could DIY the footings, build the garage, and then hire a good finisher to pour the slab. Ive been told a floating slab is considerably cheaper then digging below the frost-line, not to mention the need for wall forms when placing footers 4' down.

I'll take another look at the "frost protected footing" that you posted. Maybe I've missed something.
Did you get that design from someone with experience you trust?

I can rent one locally. So that kills the need for a backhoe

Whatever you end up with will work - I'm sure you know that. I think what you are asking is how much work can you expect the machine to do versus how much you do by hand. After you build ai few houses or shop barns you'll know that. It depends as much on the builder as which machine.

For example, I LIKE to mow grass. It's relaxing. So for me a 500 dollar self-propelled Honda mower is fine. YMMV.

But having a FEL I find absolutely necessary from day 1 through the end of the project and beyond. It doesn't have to be huge but needs to be easy on/off. Minimum is it needs to lift about 800 lbs up higher than I can lift by hand.

What I've found is that even if I were to rent or hire out all the digging work of foundation and underground lines, having a hoe to use as a crane is handy enough that I want it there during the much longer carpentry and landscaping parts of the build. So since I'm going to have one, it might as well do the digging too.

But that's just me and the way I work. Having an excavator would be even better, but I haven't seen an excavator with a loader bucket.

rScotty

 

[Rustyiron]

No building inspections in my county.

Many footings are 12" and that is what I believe that beam is.. 12" x 24" about

I chose a FPSF because you don't have to dig below the frost line. Less work and materials, cheaper and more DIY friendly.

No I have not had a soil test done.

The stick wall is offset to keep the foundation insulation flush with the wall.

https://www.homeinnovation.com/~/media/Files/Reports/Revised-Builders-Guide-to-Frost-Protected-Shallow-Foundations.pdf

Stick with your FPSF! Not only are they less costly but living on a hunk of frozen concrete is horrible. The further into winter the colder it'll get.
I'm not a super BH fan other than the Swiss army knife capabilities, but from what you've described I'd lean that way.
That 95 case SS is a very capable machine but you really have to be an "operator" to get much done and that takes time. Also the older you get, the more you'll hate getting in and out of it. And as a single guy building a house, you'll be doing a lot of getting in and out of whatever you buy.
I built an addition to our house with a FPSF and radiant in slab heat and it's performance is miles ahead of the rest of the house with 4' frost walls and an inch of foam vertically on the inside of the stem wall.

 

[Carl_NH]

Lots of names, but if you look closer at the design I posted, the slab is separate from the "frost protected footing" I'll call it.. I'm not going to try any flatwork, but figured I could DIY the footings, build the garage, and then hire a good finisher to pour the slab. Ive been told a floating slab is considerably cheaper then digging below the frost-line, not to mention the need for wall forms when placing footers 4' down.

The floating slab design we used was a monolith floating slab (code/engineering stamped) its all one slab with thick footings 18-24" wide by 18-24" deep perimeter with a 5" floor with rebar and are all one pour for a contiguous concrete foundation. Our barn and garage have been in 24 years no issues with cracking or settling - and we didn't use any rigid insulation under it or the perimeter.

Its a real easy forming job around the perimeter but if you are heating and doing plumbing in the slab plan it now or put in 3" pipe for future water/drain lines with insulation. I did prep the area with my BH and added 18 yards of crusher run stone then leveled and compacted that.

 

[rerod]

I'll take another look at the "frost protected footing" that you posted. Maybe I've missed something.
Did you get that design from someone with experience you trust?

That's funny, because I thought my picture came from this Revised Builder’s Guide to Frost Protected Shallow Foundations.. But I cant seem to find it in there.. lol. I saved it because it was the first picture of a frost protected shallow foundation where the footing and slab were two separate pours.. Which I thought would be a big advantage in my build.

 

[rScotty]

I'll take another look at the "frost protected footing" that you posted. Maybe I've missed something.
Did you get that design from someone with experience you trust?

That's funny, because I thought my picture came from this Revised Builder’s Guide to Frost Protected Shallow Foundations.. But I cant seem to find it in there.. lol. I saved it because it was the first picture of a frost protected shallow foundation where the footing and slab were two separate pours.. Which I thought would be a big advantage in my build.

The picture you saved might have been a different edition. That link you posted is to a "Revised Guide" - but I don't think it matters. The designs in that link look similar enogh to the one you posted a few days ago.

At least they are similar enough that I can see what was bothering me. In a nutshell, the author of those designs is making assumptions about heat flow that I don't agree with. I'm not saying he is wrong; I just wouldn't build that way. I also believe that most builders and engineers wouldn't either - not given today's materials and energy costs.

One of the assumptions in those designs is that that the building is always heated in the winter. With enough heat in the building, the foundation designer is showing he can build above frost line. The requirement is that the building always has enough spare heat to keep the foundation and surrounding supporting soil above freezing. Then by using enough insulation within a normally frozen depth, the designer is showing that the extra heat can be trapped.

So the design will work as long as some special conditions are met. They are implicit in his heat flow math, and are also mentioned in the text.

First is the one of having enough building heat to be able to keep the building plus the foundation above freezing, also the insulation has to be some sort of super insulation that never changes R value, and finally there cannot be any change in moisture around or underneath the foundation.

Spend the money and energy to meet those conditions, and there are no problems. But by not meeting all of those conditions, there will come a cold snap that may cause the foundation to see frost-jacking and then heaving.. That doesn't mean the building falls down, but it is exactly what was bothering me about that type of foundation design.

It's just a difference in personal preference. I see buildings as being a lot of work to put up. I'm real big on stability and structures that resist forces. Call me old fashioned because it's true.

So I prefer to over-design some things - like foundations - to automatically stay stable for the life of a structure. I just don't care for designs that require on-going special attention to work properly - in spite of that being the direction that the world is going now.

YMMV, and that's fine.
Good luck with it however you decide to do it.
rScotty

 

[Zork]

Morning folks..

I'm retired and want to build a garage with a apartment myself.. I used to do hvac and maintenance so I know a little about construction and Ive been reading.. No building inspections in my remote area of Iowa.

So I'm going back and forth about what machine would be the most versatile on my tiny acreage.. I think the skid (Case 95XT) would build a stick built garage faster and fit into small areas, but that the back hoe tractor (Case 580 4x4) could do more, but slower, bigger.. But it has a backhoe and a bucket..

I'm probably wrong about this but picked two machines that use the 4bt engine I like..

Opinions? Real life experiences?

Thanks!

I would take the loader/backhoe, whether it is fixed center pivot or 3 point (with subframe) 4x4 is a must over a skid steer. I have a smaller loader with 3 point (subframe) backhoe and I have not regretted the extra cost. If I were ever to go larger, I would take either a center or side shift

 

[Martin Roper]

Morning folks..

I'm retired and want to build a garage with a apartment myself.. I used to do hvac and maintenance so I know a little about construction and Ive been reading.. No building inspections in my remote area of Iowa.

So I'm going back and forth about what machine would be the most versatile on my tiny acreage.. I think the skid (Case 95XT) would build a stick built garage faster and fit into small areas, but that the back hoe tractor (Case 580 4x4) could do more, but slower, bigger.. But it has a backhoe and a bucket..

I'm probably wrong about this but picked two machines that use the 4bt engine I like..

Opinions? Real life experiences?

Thanks!

Get your self a self a 360 digger, it will be a decision you will never regret. It is rare that ours is not in use most days.

 

[Brendanspapa]

Morning folks..

I'm retired and want to build a garage with a apartment myself.. I used to do hvac and maintenance so I know a little about construction and Ive been reading.. No building inspections in my remote area of Iowa.

So I'm going back and forth about what machine would be the most versatile on my tiny acreage.. I think the skid (Case 95XT) would build a stick built garage faster and fit into small areas, but that the back hoe tractor (Case 580 4x4) could do more, but slower, bigger.. But it has a backhoe and a bucket..

I'm probably wrong about this but picked two machines that use the 4bt engine I like..

Opinions? Real life experiences?

Thanks!

Buy the skid steer. With attachments that you can buy or rent, it can do almost anything. They work well in tight spaces and Lou can do precision work. On
Rent a small track excavator, vs the backhoe. They have much better maneuverability than a tractor-mounted hoe. When you have finished digging footers you can send it back and it’s someone else’s to feed and maintain. Also, rent trencher for underground lines, they’re faster, more accurate depth and make less work to backfill and compact.

 

[candovt]

Morning folks..

I'm retired and want to build a garage with a apartment myself.. I used to do hvac and maintenance so I know a little about construction and Ive been reading.. No building inspections in my remote area of Iowa.

So I'm going back and forth about what machine would be the most versatile on my tiny acreage.. I think the skid (Case 95XT) would build a stick built garage faster and fit into small areas, but that the back hoe tractor (Case 580 4x4) could do more, but slower, bigger.. But it has a backhoe and a bucket..

I'm probably wrong about this but picked two machines that use the 4bt engine I like..

Opinions? Real life experiences?

Thanks!

I suggest the backhoe with a hydraulic thumb would give you long term assistance. One step further would be the backhoe as an attachment to a wheeled tractor with a three point hitch and quick attach front loader. I built a 3300 sf post and beam house using a Kubota L48 with that combination plus: front loader cement mixer, fork crane with remote control winch, snow plow, grapple, York rake, & grade blade attachments.
Vt for ever

 

[strykerAKAmack]

I started out with an old case 480c , got the job done but less you have wide open area to work in
it gets tight quick , added a case sr160 skid steer tons more work done with that machine ,
Best addition was a mini excavator 4 ton . Now that machine gets 80 % of work done .
If I got the mini x first would never had added a backhoe .Only time backhoe gets used is if I need the lifting power of it .

 

[joea99]

. . . Looks like they put allot of stress on the three point too.

A little late to this conversation, but . . . A "real" TLB does not attach the BH to the 3pt hitch. They are "frame mounted", but usually still removable.

Avoid 3pt hitch backhoe's like the plague. Fragile, sloppy and dangerous. IMHO.