77 Satoh Beaver S370D wont start, low compression

[Ilikeurtractor]

I usually just roll it approximately 90 degrees past when the intake valve closes. Having a PTO shaft come off the front of the engine helps with this so you have something to grab with a pipe wrench. The cam minor diameter runs a relatively long way along the circumference of the lobe. You don't have to be at TDC to get the valves set correctly.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

I forgot the last resort to starting is a pull start. That will get your cranking speeds where they need to be. Definitely confirm the valves are set correctly first though.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Tore down the engine today, I couldnt get the thing rolled out the gate from where I had the seller drop it. I pulled the head off with the valve guide still attached and scraped the gasket off both sides. The oil pan is a pain to get off with 4x4, its still stuck between the oil pan pickup and the drive shaft...any ideas? Heres some pictures of the progress in chronological order.






I cant feel a ridge on the top of the cylinder so thats a good sign. I tried to take a picture where you guys could see the walls. Cylinder 2 is closer to the top so theres not much to see. I didnt get any pictures of the pan, but I need to figure a way to get the drive shaft out of the way so I can work on those rods, and get the pan out of the way. Also to torque the head back down Ill need to disassemble the valve guides which Im not 100% sure about. Im worried ill get something mixed up there so I wanted to wait til I posted this and got some answers...and it was dinner time.

 

[Agvg]

Have you checked the timing on the injection pump? You might test the injectors to. How does the valves look?

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

I believe four small bolts hold the front drive shaft on around the front universal joint. I think there is a split housing that needs to come off first. The rear should just slide out after that but if not check for a split pin holding it. I just got done with the Iseki so I remember that but the Satoh has been too long for my feeble memory. It's hard to see the condition of the walls but if you can't feel a ridge that is a very good sign that it is probably just stuck rings. I've never opened one up that didn't have a "feelable" ridge. Look for any pronounced vertical score marks. The G154 I just went through did not have any significant scoring on the cylinder walls which is not typical to my prior experiences.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Have you checked the timing on the injection pump? You might test the injectors to. How does the valves look?

I didnt check timing, not sure how to do that, but maybe its in the manual? I didnt see the injector spray pattern right from the nozzle, but I know theres spraying in there. I took them out but didnt take a picture, they have some carbon but you can still easily see and feel the nub. Valves have a lot of carbon on them and potentially could be stuck slightly open, Ill clean them up in the parts washer and will know more. My machinist friend at work told me to lap them. The valve closest to the front and 3rd from the front were loose where it stopped in the cycle, so there probably needs to be some tightening done somewhere. Someone mentioned turning the front PTO to get to TDC, does that require removing the hood and radiator? My FEL is blocking quite a bit of this job already, but I want to avoid taking it off. I plan on re-ringing either way just because Im in there and I would be very upset having to buy 2 head gaskets and going back in if the head cleanup and lapping doesnt work.

Ill check out the split housing bolts again, I saw them and didnt want to go there hoping there was an alternative. I wanted to drain the oil there anyway, so well do that and see what happens.im just worried about how hard its going to be to get the thing back on.

 

[Agvg]

Loose valves?

 

[HomesteadOC]

Loose valves?

Yes the rocker arms wobble and there is a large gap between the pushrods and the rocker arms or the rocker arms and the valve springs. These are valves 1 and 3 from the front, 2 and 4 were tight and as expected. Maybe it was just the part of the cycle, or maybe its an issue. I plan on doing the full tuning in the manual when it all goes back together. I wanted to make a note and let everyone know for the record. I didnt measure with a feeler gauge, but its probably bigger than 1/32”.

 

[Agvg]

Has there been wrenching on the engine before you bought it?

 

[thepumpguysc]

The FIRST TOOL you shoulda grabbed is a pressure washer.. Lol
Lemme know if you want/need the fuel system checked out.. Good luck w/ the o/h.. TPG

 

[HomesteadOC]

There probably has been wrenching done before I got it, but not by the seller. He said he had it 2 years and it just ran for him. The serial number suggests 77-78 so Im sure somebody did something in that time, but I have no record of what or when.

I did pressure wash it, until my cheap harbor freight pressure washer broke. I got the undercarraige pretty good, but not the engine. I used straight water the first round and was going to come back with simple green, but it broke. Id like to go through the injectors and make sure theyre 100% before it all goes back together. Is it feasable to rebuild these myself? Or is it something that sent in for rebuild? Is there a solution I can soak it in to dissolve any solids in there?

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

I didnt check timing, not sure how to do that, but maybe its in the manual? [snip] Someone mentioned turning the front PTO to get to TDC, does that require removing the hood and radiator?

Don't worry about timing. There's not a lot you can do to put these engines into specification (25 degrees BTDC). Unless you notice a gasket that is 1/4" tall or more under the pump then you're probably fine. If you're curious I posted about this problem (I believe this actually fixed other, possibly more sinister problems with these engines) here:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...post4884864.html?highlight=timing#post4884864

In summary, you can't really get the timing more advanced than about 5 degrees BTDC even if you remove all the shims under the pump. I don't know if all KE70s are this way or not. I have one that has an early serial # (below 19,000 if I remember correctly) that I believe is actually running the correct timing but I haven't performed the high frame-rate camera test to prove it out. It is significantly louder (knocking) at idle than all my other engines that are over 40,000 in their serial #s and it seems to run stronger at high rpm and weaker at low rpm vs. the others which would support the original timing spec. Later timing tends to result in better starting and lower noise, but in more smoke typically. My gut feeling is this was a design change made to the cam grind to force a reduction in the noise on the engines (because my older one is way louder) and NOx which may have been an EPA thing even back in the late 70s and early 80s. It also potentially reduces the likelihood of experiencing bent rods and cylinder wear in my opinion.

The front PTO, if you have one, should be accessible from under the radiator. You can also just grab the fan and rotate the engine by rotating the fan if the compression is weak and your belt is tight.

 

[HomesteadOC]

I dont see the serial number on the engine, possibly too much grease and grime. Frame serial number is ST1300D-700383.
Should be easy to turn the engine by the fan since the heads are off and theres no compression. Id like to orientate the pistons at tdc before I put the head back on so I can do the valve adjustment correctly. Which piston should be at TDC, #1?
Heres a picture of my oil pan/drive shaft predicament looks like theres an outer shield to the drive shaft, maybe I just need to pull that to get to the rods?

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

In order to drop the oil pan you normally need to drop at least the front half of the drive shaft. You might be able to pull the pan out with just taking off the drive shaft guard but you'll want the drive shaft out of the way anyway when you start working on the connecting rod caps. Each piston ideally would be around TDC when you set the valves for their corresponding cylinder but that can be inconvenient to get to without being able to see the crankshaft pulley timing marks. That's why I generally just spin the engine and watch the valves. After the intake valve closes for the particular cylinder being adjusted, just turn the crankshaft somewhere between 90 and 180 degrees clockwise (looking towards the rear of the tractor facing the crankshaft pulley) and that will be close enough. These engines aren't really that sensitive to valve adjustment or timing. The biggest concern is making sure the valves are able to close fully to prevent compression losses through them so you want to ensure you're at least have some gap. More isn't as bad as less but a ton of gap won't allow it to breath either.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Could loose valves cause the compression to drop? I would guess that the piston would push them closed during the compression stroke and not make too much of a difference. Im 100-150psi off of ideal for cylinders 2 and 1 respectively.
Ill have to read over the manual for a while, I skimmed through and didnt really see anything about driveshaft removal. Im worried if I split that case I wont get it back in there the way its supposed to go.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Bill Rodgers of Valley Power is the man...no pumpkin splitting required. Remove driveshaft covers, unbolt 4 bolts on the yoke and slide it out the back. Ill be getting back into it after work today and take some pictures and probably a video. After figuring out the youtubes, its actually easier to post videos than pictures using a phone. And if a picture is worth 1000 words, it seems a video should be worth 1000 pictures, right?

 

[HomesteadOC]

Ordered a few supplies on amazon, got coarse and fine lapping compound, lapping tool, prussian blue fitting dye, ring expander, ring compressor, engine assembly oil and brass T for fuel injectors to tank. Was debating over the super fancy assembly oil or buying an oil can and using oil the engine will use, but the assembly oil came in a bottle where I didnt need a can and was cheaper than the can. Still not sure on which gaskets Ill need, but Im pretty sure I can reuse the intake and exhaust, the coolant inlet was an RTV gasket maker job. Im also missing a few bolts here and there, so Ill try and get those replaced. Im missing the bottom 2 studs on my exhaust ports, might be tough to find those, maybe a bolt would be easier? Also noticed a missing bolt on the right side loader support, thats probably important. Still need to order ring set, I need to pull pistons before Ill know which set to get. And the power washing will have to wait til after final asssmbly, all parts will be cleaned in the partswasher before installation though.

 

[Kernopelli]

.....didnt really see anything about driveshaft removal. Im worried if I split that case I wont get it back in there the way its supposed to go.

Your driveshaft case/shield looks similar to the one on my tractor. Simple 2 piece design, it's dry ( no oil,grease, fluid). Remove the perimeter bolts and there are probably 2-4 bolts that hold the shield to the differential and trans cases. Pop the shield's 2 pieces apart and you can get to the front drive shaft and yoke.

I have had great experiences with NCW Tractor Parts, LLC. Over the last 3 years, I've bought all parts for a full rebuild in a K3F engine, some small incidentals and a new larger hydraulic pump from them and couldn't beat their prices. Very easy to work with and seems to know Mitsubishi inside and out.

 

[HomesteadOC]

Todays progress...got the pistons out and checked them out mine have 5 oil holes on each side of the piston (10 total) in case anyone is interested. Top ring looks like its square, a lot of them had to be broken to remove them. I noticed that there are 2 sides to the connecting rods, one has a little nub at the bottom of the end cap and Im not really sure which was theyre supposed to go. I laid them out on the paper towel with the direction they came out of the engine, but I didnt pay attention when I removed the caps and set them aside. Heres a little compilation video.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

Looks just like mine did except my front cylinder had the stuck rings and the rear rings were free but had the lower compression similar to yours. A hone and new rings should get you back in business. Usually I would have the head gone through with new valves, valve grind, and seals but this last one I didn't. I would still recommend installing new seals but I think if you just do a quick lap of your existing valves that should be fine. On mine the rods had numbers punch-marked into them. Keep the numbers together on the rod and cap. I can't remember if the numbers went to the right or left of the engine, but seems like it was the right. It does matter according to the manual and it says in there somewhere.