A newbies DIY solar install

[LD1]

Nice solar setup.

I envy some of you that have better net metering practices that makes solar worth while.

I have kicked around the idea several times and still cannot make the numbers justify solar with my current electric companies net metering practices. I wish it wasn't so complicated and more uniform across the board.

Here, there is no "banking" surplus or carrying credits into winter.

I use about 2200kwh/month at about $0.14 per kWh....or about $300 a month.

If I installed a system capable of that....problem is I'd be making the bulk of that 2200kwh during the day when no one is home to use it. So that 2200 goes back to the grid at about $0.05/kWh. Just so I can turn around and buy my power for $0.14/kWh.

Just something about spending $30k to generate as much as I spend.....only to have my electric bill go fr $300/month down to $200/month. Can't seem to swallow that pill. And I'm I am not sold on battery tech just yet.

Congrats on the solar. Would love to invest myself but until my coop changes something with their grid-tied and net metering practices....I'll just have to observe from the sidelines.

 

[jk96]

Nice solar setup.

I envy some of you that have better net metering practices that makes solar worth while.

I have kicked around the idea several times and still cannot make the numbers justify solar with my current electric companies net metering practices. I wish it wasn't so complicated and more uniform across the board.

Here, there is no "banking" surplus or carrying credits into winter.

I use about 2200kwh/month at about $0.14 per kWh....or about $300 a month.

If I installed a system capable of that....problem is I'd be making the bulk of that 2200kwh during the day when no one is home to use it. So that 2200 goes back to the grid at about $0.05/kWh. Just so I can turn around and buy my power for $0.14/kWh.

Just something about spending $30k to generate as much as I spend.....only to have my electric bill go fr $300/month down to $200/month. Can't seem to swallow that pill. And I'm I am not sold on battery tech just yet.

Congrats on the solar. Would love to invest myself but until my coop changes something with their grid-tied and net metering practices....I'll just have to observe from the sidelines.

Are you 100% sure your coop calculates your usage and generation daily? I have never heard of a utility doing that. Almost all calculate the usage vs generation once per month at the end of the billing cycle.

 

[LD1]

Are you 100% sure your coop calculates your usage and generation daily? I have never heard of a utility doing that. Almost all calculate the usage vs generation once per month at the end of the billing cycle.

Yes and no

They have the ability to track it daily. We have smart meters and I can look at daily usage.

If you have solar, there is a second meter for solar. It measures what goes back to the grid. The main meter measures what you pull from the grid.

You get charged $0.14/kWh for what is taken from grid....and get paid $0.05/kWh for what you put on the grid.

Since no one is home during the day when the panels are producing their max.....it's almost all going back to the grid at $0.05. and in The evening when the sun goes down....showers are taken, dinner being cooked, laundry, tv, lights, etc.....panels aren't producing....but we would be consuming from the grid at $0.14.

It's not a 1 for 1 tradeoff.

You'd have to use all your electricity when the sun is up and none when the sun is down to NOT borrow any juice from the grid. But that isn't practical. Either that or triple the size of the system, to produce way more than you consume to break even. But even then you will never truly break even....because they have a $50 minimum monthly bill.

It's just a loose loose trying to go solar with our local coop. Which is why you don't see many solar installs in our area. The only ones you see doing it are the Uber wealthy. And it's more of a novelty or "good deed" type thing than it is about being cost effective

 

[jk96]

Yes and no

They have the ability to track it daily. We have smart meters and I can look at daily usage.

If you have solar, there is a second meter for solar. It measures what goes back to the grid. The main meter measures what you pull from the grid.

You get charged $0.14/kWh for what is taken from grid....and get paid $0.05/kWh for what you put on the grid.

Since no one is home during the day when the panels are producing their max.....it's almost all going back to the grid at $0.05. and in The evening when the sun goes down....showers are taken, dinner being cooked, laundry, tv, lights, etc.....panels aren't producing....but we would be consuming from the grid at $0.14.

It's not a 1 for 1 tradeoff.

You'd have to use all your electricity when the sun is up and none when the sun is down to NOT borrow any juice from the grid. But that isn't practical. Either that or triple the size of the system, to produce way more than you consume to break even. But even then you will never truly break even....because they have a $50 minimum monthly bill.

It's just a loose loose trying to go solar with our local coop. Which is why you don't see many solar installs in our area. The only ones you see doing it are the Uber wealthy. And it's more of a novelty or "good deed" type thing than it is about being cost effective

Agreed it doesn't make since if that is the case. While we can see our usage and generation daily via smart meter the calculation for billing purposes is only done at the end of the month, not daily. So if we produce 2000 K wh and consume 2100 K wh for the month we would only be billed for 100 K wh. What happens in between on a daily basis does not matter.

 

[LD1]

Agreed it doesn't make since if that is the case. While we can see our usage and generation daily via smart meter the calculation for billing purposes is only done at the end of the month, not daily. So if we produce 2000 K wh and consume 2100 K wh for the month we would only be billed for 100 K wh. What happens in between on a daily basis does not matter.

The what happens in-between on a daily basis doesn't matter persay.

It's about what electrical you are using. Theirs or yours. That's where it matters daily.

If you are using what you are producing....it never hits the meter to go back on the grid....and you aren't using any off the grid either.

If you don't use it while it's being made....it goes to the grid and you get 5 cents. If you need to use when you ain't making....you get charged 14 cents.

In your example....you used 2100, made 2000....get billed for 100.

With my electric company....that same scenario, I would be billed 2100 @ $0.14 and credited 2000 @ $0.05.

By doing it the way your electric company does it, it's great for those with solar for sure. But they are basically buying power from you at retail rate. My COOP is of the opinion that isn't fair to non solar members. Basically buying power at 3x the cost isn't good for the rest of the members. And being a non-profit coop....they were exempt from some.of the net-metering laws that went into place for some of the for-profit companies.

If they ever change their policy and offer a 1 for 1 net metering...I would get pretty serious about solar

 

[LD1]

Everytime solar comes up I always get the bug to start researching and see whats out there, and if there have been any major changes since last time I decided to look.

Did you end up doing the install yourself?

I know earlier you were talking about the whole system being in the ~$0.75/watt price range. Did you still end at or near that?

I have looked at alot of the DIY kits and it seems everything is double that. Like 24.9k "kits" are $35k-$40k just for the kit.

I average 1800kwh/month. With the three coldest months, jan-mar being ~2300. And as low as 1300 spring and fall. So if you believe the "monthly output" advertisement. Id be looking for a 12.5kw system. but all I am seeing is $20k+

There are alot of companies that advertise for installing solar....no money down....bad credit, etc. And there are alot of websites selling DIY kits. Kinda seems a nightmare separating the wheat from the chaff to know what is a good deal and want is marketing to make someone else rich. Like its hard to know who/what to trust when reading about solar.

 

[ponytug]

@LD1 Sorry to hear about the solar ROI problems. When I first looked at solar for our place, it didn't pencil out either, but then as solar costs dropped, it did pencil out, and the ROI ended up being five years or so.

Have you looked at adding batteries to your ROI mix? They make a big difference for us in terms of being self sufficient day to day. Can you also load shift a bit, moving your water heating to solar hours, etc.? I readily admit that our rationale for batteries had everything to do with outages, but the load shifting made a big difference in costs, but our power is more expensive ($0.50 peak, $0.19 off peak, at the moment), which speeds up the ROI.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Wood_Butcher_Dav]

The what happens in-between on a daily basis doesn't matter persay.

It's about what electrical you are using. Theirs or yours. That's where it matters daily.

If you are using what you are producing....it never hits the meter to go back on the grid....and you aren't using any off the grid either.

If you don't use it while it's being made....it goes to the grid and you get 5 cents. If you need to use when you ain't making....you get charged 14 cents.

In your example....you used 2100, made 2000....get billed for 100.

With my electric company....that same scenario, I would be billed 2100 @ $0.14 and credited 2000 @ $0.05.

By doing it the way your electric company does it, it's great for those with solar for sure. But they are basically buying power from you at retail rate. My COOP is of the opinion that isn't fair to non solar members. Basically buying power at 3x the cost isn't good for the rest of the members. And being a non-profit coop....they were exempt from some.of the net-metering laws that went into place for some of the for-profit companies.

If they ever change their policy and offer a 1 for 1 net metering...I would get pretty serious about solar

Are you sure about your scenario, if you solar is producing and your using it your grid meter would not be turning.

Yes the best way to use net metering solar is to use what you are producing or charging batteries during the day.

Mine is like $0.11 savings when using solar and $.04 when spinning meter backwards.

Look for other public monies that might be available in your county or state grants, my state grant saved me another 40%.

Cost of my system was 27K with 9K federal tax rebate and 11K IL Shines grant. My electric bill has been saving or is about $200 a month lower before solar install. My payback is at 3 years.

Dave

 

[deezler]

This is what happens when you forget to tighten the set screws on the top plates that attach to the vertical pipe. I can't imagine waking up to that.

Was it your cousins fault, or did he have it all installed by someone? What a gut punch.

 

[LD1]

@LD1 Sorry to hear about the solar ROI problems. When I first looked at solar for our place, it didn't pencil out either, but then as solar costs dropped, it did pencil out, and the ROI ended up being five years or so.

Have you looked at adding batteries to your ROI mix? They make a big difference for us in terms of being self sufficient day to day. Can you also load shift a bit, moving your water heating to solar hours, etc.? I readily admit that our rationale for batteries had everything to do with outages, but the load shifting made a big difference in costs, but our power is more expensive ($0.50 peak, $0.19 off peak, at the moment), which speeds up the ROI.

All the best,

Peter

Im not too keen on batteries. If I did anything it would be grid tie and grid tie alone.

I do have a bit of renewed interest in solar, and need to call the power company because it seems they have made some changes with their net metering policy.

IT seems they DO offer net metering in a limited way. Direct quote from them

we felt that providing a limited net-metering option would serve those members who believe strongly in promoting renewable energy sources and those who believe strongly that we should instead keep costs low.

It seems there interest is to maintain balance. Allow some of those that want solar to reap the benefits, but trying to maintain the peace by keeping everyone elses rates low as well. Literally, if EVERYONE would install solar....there would be no paying customers left to support the paychecks of the linemen and general maintenance of the grid....so I understand.

They do give an example

1. If the system generates 80 kWh in that same month, those 80 kWh will be credited back to that month’s bill at the retail rate, creating a bill equivalent to the member’s purchasing only 20 kWh that same month.
2. If the system generates 110 kWh, the first 100 kWh will be credited at the retail rate, and the additional 10 kWh will be credited at the avoided-cost rate. We’ll assume that the total dollar value of credits remains less than the member’s total bill for the month, and no further considerations apply.
3. If the system generates significantly more than the 100 kWh, the first 100 of those will be credited at retail rate, and the additional will be credited at the avoided-cost rate. If the total amount of credit (100 kWh at retail rate plus remainder at avoided-cost rate), exceeds the member’s total bill for the month, the amount that the dollar value of the credit exceeds the total bill cost will be carried over to the following month, and the current month’s bill will be $0.
   • However, the total dollar value of credits over the prior 12 months cannot exceed the total amount billed over those same 12 months. Credits above this limit will be forfeited; however, such a situation is unlikely.

So it would be possible to have a $0 bill. But I would have to make enough electric for myself, as well as enough surplus every month at the avoided cost rate (~$0.05) to cover the $50 meter fee.

I have yet to try and figure how all this applies when some months I use as much as 2300 and other months as little as 1300. My average being 1800. Seems I would either be banking credits at $0.05/kwh....or not making enough electric and having to buy the difference at $0.14/kwh....ugh.

To further compound matters.....my shop is on a different meter. But same account. So dont know what if anything they could do about that. I average only about 300kwh/month at the shop.

I just need to talk to someone local, familiar with solar in this area and dealing with my power company. But circle back to who/what do you trust