A newbies DIY solar install

[jk96]

Yes, solar only adds $10/month....but I was figuring the total charge.

My figures were Dec 20 to Nov 21.

In those 12 months I used 21335 kwh.....and I paid $2394 for that.

IF I had a solar installed in those SAME 12 months....capable of averaging 1780kwh/month.....I would have STILL paid $684 ($57x12) plus the $171 bought from the power company on the months I would have been short

The only way NOT to be short would be size the system bigger, to handle the peak months....then give then the surplus. But there is NO WAY to get around paying them the $684 per year no matter what.

Thus....I only stand to save ~$1500/year with a 12-13kw system by my math.

So for the purpose of how I have if figured....I need to account for the WHOLE $57 per month...not just the increase of $10/month since the $47 I am already paying was already figured in my yearly total of $2394

Looking at the cost of all of my components if you did everything yourself you could probably do a 12.5kw system between $17k and $18k before federal tax rebates. About $12.5k to $13.3k after rebate of 23% for 2022.

 

[LD1]

Looking at the cost of all of my components if you did everything yourself you could probably do a 12.5kw system between $17k and $18k before federal tax rebates. About $12.5k to $13.3k after rebate of 23% for 2022.

So still knocking on a 10 year payback.

And I question the accuracy, when looking at the various panel kits....the monthly output.

Most of the 12-13kw kits I see list monthly output around 1800kwh. Wonder if that is real world expectations....or if that is hypothetical data based on ideal conditions all the time?

I am waiting on a call back from an installer. Never dealt with solar. But I am sure it cannot be that hard to install right? If I DID consider it....not sure if I want a it mounted in the yard or on the roof. Not too keen on the roof idea, and my roof doesnt have ideal direction (my ridge runs directly north and south). Not sure what the ideal angle is either at my latitude

 

[jk96]

So still knocking on a 10 year payback.

And I question the accuracy, when looking at the various panel kits....the monthly output.

Most of the 12-13kw kits I see list monthly output around 1800kwh. Wonder if that is real world expectations....or if that is hypothetical data based on ideal conditions all the time?

I am waiting on a call back from an installer. Never dealt with solar. But I am sure it cannot be that hard to install right? If I DID consider it....not sure if I want a it mounted in the yard or on the roof. Not too keen on the roof idea, and my roof doesnt have ideal direction (my ridge runs directly north and south). Not sure what the ideal angle is either at my latitude

Just fyi I have two separate 25 kw systems on my wedding venue as well. My panels on the building are west facing where these on the house face south. This time of year one 25kw system on the building produces only 65 to 70% of what my home is producing.

 

[jk96]

As far as output my estimate was 36,800 kwh annually. So far my panels have just slightly outperformed estimates. December estimate is 2,180.

 

[ning]

So still knocking on a 10 year payback.

And I question the accuracy, when looking at the various panel kits....the monthly output.

Most of the 12-13kw kits I see list monthly output around 1800kwh. Wonder if that is real world expectations....or if that is hypothetical data based on ideal conditions all the time?

I am waiting on a call back from an installer. Never dealt with solar. But I am sure it cannot be that hard to install right? If I DID consider it....not sure if I want a it mounted in the yard or on the roof. Not too keen on the roof idea, and my roof doesnt have ideal direction (my ridge runs directly north and south). Not sure what the ideal angle is either at my latitude

My system is 10.24kW DC, 7.68kW AC; my array is oriented to 20 degrees west of south, and is approximately at 39N; if I recall it's got a 20 degree elevation - we're set up for best afternoon sun we can get in the summer (by far our peak use time). We have great morning & daytime sun at the location, but get shadowed at latest by 6:45PM in the summer (and much earlier in the winter) because of a tall hill.

I provide the above info about the site because all of that strongly affects the energy production. If your array is on the roof of a house, you're typically constrained to the roof's orientation and pitch.

Here's the pertinent part of my first year's report (system came on-line during Jan 2021, so I left that out, and we're only partway into Dec 2021, so I left that out too):

pvwatts calc ->:

The weather here in the summer is typically clear blue sky with clouds here and there, but almost no "weather"; winter is typically gray and often pretty dark.
August was exceptionally smoky here - enough to drop the local temperatures significantly and undoubtedly affecting solar production.

I'd expect Ohio winter production to be meager with almost any size array.

If you have space, I'd go ground mount, because you're more likely to be able to get as much panel space as you want without having to buy the latest greatest most expensive panels (drop down a tier and buy an extra panel), and there's no chance you're going to compromise your roof by attaching mounts to it.
I used a heavy enough cable between my array and the mains that I can add another 5kW array and not change any components in the system other than a single circuit breaker (I'd have to add another breaker at the array combiner box, plus the 5kW array & mount & cable from that new array to the combiner box - but nothing from the combiner box onwards). I could've *just* put 10kW on my house, but it would've been oriented less efficiently and definitely have no 5kW upgrade path - though there would not have been a 500 foot trench & cable from the array to the mains, either.

Setting up the ground mount is trivial to the typical TBN'er, and gives you some good opportunities to play with the tractor (for footings & cable trench).
Setting up the solar panels and plugging everything together is like playing with legos.
There's a small amount of wiring that some people may prefer to leave to an electrician; I got lucky and the local utility was replacing our local power pole (weather, time and woodpeckers pretty much destroyed it) and had our power out for a few hours and that's when I wired our transfer switch (which involved taking the mains input and sending that to the switch, and attaching the house feed wire instead to the switch); I was going to have an electrician handle that specific task if the utility hadn't intervened so conveniently.

Edit: I added for comparison the pvwatts calculator's predicted output next to my system's report. Matches pretty well. (Thanks to @Roric for that link)

 

[Roric]

So still knocking on a 10 year payback.

And I question the accuracy, when looking at the various panel kits....the monthly output.

Most of the 12-13kw kits I see list monthly output around 1800kwh. Wonder if that is real world expectations....or if that is hypothetical data based on ideal conditions all the time?

I am waiting on a call back from an installer. Never dealt with solar. But I am sure it cannot be that hard to install right? If I DID consider it....not sure if I want a it mounted in the yard or on the roof. Not too keen on the roof idea, and my roof doesnt have ideal direction (my ridge runs directly north and south). Not sure what the ideal angle is either at my latitude

go to pvwatts.nrel/pvwatts.php for a look at solar production

 

[Roric]

The PVwatts site shows my array is supposed to produce 9500kwh per year.
7500 watts of panels (20x375) roof mounted 19 degree roof tilt, south facing.
In the 2 years I have been producing I average 9105kwh per year.
We use about 9000 per year. We have snow cover from Dec. thru Feb. or more
each year.

As you can see, the utility you are connecting to, if you are grid tied, makes alot
of the difference in the payback. If you self-install, do your homework first. There
can be a chance to avoid headaches that way.

regards, R

 

[LD1]

My system is 10.24kW DC, 7.68kW AC; my array is oriented to 20 degrees west of south, and is approximately at 39N; if I recall it's got a 20 degree elevation - we're set up for best afternoon sun we can get in the summer (by far our peak use time). We have great morning & daytime sun at the location, but get shadowed at latest by 6:45PM in the summer (and much earlier in the winter) because of a tall hill.

I provide the above info about the site because all of that strongly affects the energy production. If your array is on the roof of a house, you're typically constrained to the roof's orientation and pitch.

Here's the pertinent part of my first year's report (system came on-line during Jan 2021, so I left that out, and we're only partway into Dec 2021, so I left that out too):
View attachment 724345
The weather here in the summer is typically clear blue sky with clouds here and there, but almost no "weather"; winter is typically gray and often pretty dark.
August was exceptionally smoky here - enough to drop the local temperatures significantly and undoubtedly affecting solar production.

I'd expect Ohio winter production to be meager with almost any size array.

If you have space, I'd go ground mount, because you're more likely to be able to get as much panel space as you want without having to buy the latest greatest most expensive panels (drop down a tier and buy an extra panel), and there's no chance you're going to compromise your roof by attaching mounts to it.
I used a heavy enough cable between my array and the mains that I can add another 5kW array and not change any components in the system other than a single circuit breaker (I'd have to add another breaker at the array combiner box, plus the 5kW array & mount & cable from that new array to the combiner box - but nothing from the combiner box onwards). I could've *just* put 10kW on my house, but it would've been oriented less efficiently and definitely have no 5kW upgrade path - though there would not have been a 500 foot trench & cable from the array to the mains, either.

Setting up the ground mount is trivial to the typical TBN'er, and gives you some good opportunities to play with the tractor (for footings & cable trench).
Setting up the solar panels and plugging everything together is like playing with legos.
There's a small amount of wiring that some people may prefer to leave to an electrician; I got lucky and the local utility was replacing our local power pole (weather, time and woodpeckers pretty much destroyed it) and had our power out for a few hours and that's when I wired our transfer switch (which involved taking the mains input and sending that to the switch, and attaching the house feed wire instead to the switch); I was going to have an electrician handle that specific task if the utility hadn't intervened so conveniently.

Thats actually pretty good numbers for the 10.24kw system.

This seems like shopping online specs for tractors and lift capacities.

So many different numbers, all different....dont really know what is real world. The cost of miscalculating on sizing is great. Too small and I dont get much benefit. But too big and Im giving excess power away for free.

over 3 years, I have averaged 21000-22000kwh per year usage. Here is a quick look at my usage
Dec-May 2019 1993kwh average
Jun-Nov 2019 1435kwh average
Dec-May 2020 2092kwh average
Jun-Nov 2020 1473kwh average
Dec-May 2021 2036 kwh average
Jun-Nov 2021 1507 kwh average

I am now questioning the efficiency of a 12kw system that "claims" ~1800kwh monthly output. Seems I may fall even shorter than expected in winter. Which would further diminish my returns. Lots of hypotheticals.....but IF such a system would only produce ~1800kwh for 6 months out of the year....but those other 6 months drop to a abysmal average of 1000kwh per month...now I am looking at still owing the electric company ~$1330/year. So now I am down to only saving $1000/year on a $15k system.

I wish I understood more about the sizing and real world performance IN MY AREA.

I am waiting on a call back from an installer in this area to see what he suggests for sizing.

Ultimately, the issue becomes the panels are capable of producing the MOST energy when I dont need it. And produce the LEAST energy when I need it the most.

Seems the whole concept of solar would be great somewhere like florida or arizone. When the sun is hot and beating down is when you jack up the AC. Not so much here in ohio. AC is a minor electric draw for me. Need the most juice when its a cold windy February night and the panels aint doing squat...lol

 

[LD1]

The PVwatts site shows my array is supposed to produce 9500kwh per year.
7500 watts of panels (20x375) roof mounted 19 degree roof tilt, south facing.
In the 2 years I have been producing I average 9105kwh per year.
We use about 9000 per year. We have snow cover from Dec. thru Feb. or more
each year.

As you can see, the utility you are connecting to, if you are grid tied, makes alot
of the difference in the payback. If you self-install, do your homework first. There
can be a chance to avoid headaches that way.

regards, R

YES. The rural coop's dont seem to be that generous towards solar installs and their net metering.

IE: Currently I pay $0.0266 for distrubution and ~$0.08 for generation and transmission PLUS a flat $47.75 service fee.

Going to solar....any excess I make I get credited LESS than distribution....$0.0210/kwh. Then they bump service fee up to $57....and no amount of excess production will ever offset the $57. And there is even language on their website that indicates if your system makes more than you consume you "may not be eligible for net metering" and with language like

In the exceedingly unlikely case that the sun shines more excessively than typical for our region, net-metered accounts will not be eligible for reimbursements

Kinda doesnt give one a warm and fuzzy feeling to want to go solar. After talking to them in person, and reading all the literature they have....I get the impression they DONT want people to install these larger solar systems. Rather they just want people to install smaller 2-3kw systems to maybe offset $20-$30 a month. But beyond that they dont get too kind with their pricing/net metering structuring.

6-10 year payback would be awesome. Sign me up and ill write the check.

But this seams like a big headache and hassle.....drop $15k only to lower my bill by ~$85/month. If they really arent too keen on solar and wanting people to install these larger systems....im inclined to oblige them.

 

[ponytug]

Well, @LD1 our five year payback comes with $0.50/kWh power...Careful what you wish for.