a question about duals

[jimg]

I'm in the process of looking for a hay tractor and the push from every dealer I've talked w/ so far is to buy 4WD. I did explain that the primary use was hay w/ some occassional very light tillage and planting (small no till drill). They admitted 4WD wasn't strickly necessary for that but would be helpful and also make resale easier. I can certainly understand their position but I also think I'd like to put my money in other more important equipment if possible. When (if) I need the extra traction I was planning to put duals on the rear. I did mention this plan but few thought it a good idea but never explained clearly why. It seemed good to me. What do you think? Am I way off on this or would duals work out well/just OK/not at all? In W WA where I moved from there were many 2WD tractors still in use (used for all sorts of work) that had duals. All of those machines seemed to get the job done. The land around here is pretty much relaxed so hills aren't a concerned. Perhaps there are other considerations I'm missing.

 

[JESSE1]

Four wheel drive is real nice to have when using a FEL but not necessary. My 6400 JD is 2wd and has always had a loader on it. 4wd would make moving hay or dirt in wet conditions much easier. If you routinely use a loader in wet conditions I would recommend 4wd, especially with a smaller tractor. It does add a significant cost when buying a large tractor. Duals don't add traction where you need it when using a loader except for the extra weight in the rear provided by the tires/wheels. The extra width would be a problem when hooked to a baler or when transporting the tractor. My recommendation would be go with 4wd. I know I'll get it on my next tractor.

 

[JackIL]

Jim,

Certainly 2WD would suffice for the applications you describe and many older 2WD tractors with duals did a lot of productive farming. However, the current economic reality is that most purchasers of tractors, both new and used, have come to expect that the tractor they want is capable of all wheel drive. This means that over time the resale value of a 2WD tractor drops much more rapidly than a 4WD tractor will. On large ag tractors the cost of the front wheel drive holds its value when you trade the next time and, if fact, may significantly increase the resale value of the tractor significantly. If you don't expect to ever trade this tractor for another in your lifetime, then 2WD might be reasonable.

Another factor is that the front tires for 2WD tractors will require higher inflation pressures than those for a mechanical front wheel drive tractor. The larger front tires on front wheel tire tractors also have more load capacity which can become a factor for loader work that the tractor may see.

Food for thought.

JackIL

 

[JoeinTX]

Like said above, FWA is not necessary for what you seem to be looking for. Are they pushing new tractors on you as opposed to used?

FWA is nice and we have a small one now mainly for loader/dirt work. It's as good for steering and control as it is for ultimate power to the ground in my experience.

Amazingly, there are a whole bunch of conventional 2wd tractors out there which have bailed hay, plowed, done loader work, and pulled loads as you note in your original post.

FWA? I don't look for it specifically in a tractor. If the price is right and it has it..........okay. I find a lot of seeming bargains on 2wd units which will still do the job at the end of the day and cost less........

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Like said above, FWA is not necessary for what you seem to be looking for. Are they pushing new tractors on you as opposed to used?

FWA is nice and we have a small one now mainly for loader/dirt work. It's as good for steering and control as it is for ultimate power to the ground in my experience.

Amazingly, there are a whole bunch of conventional 2wd tractors out there which have bailed hay, plowed, done loader work, and pulled loads as you note in your original post.

FWA? I don't look for it specifically in a tractor. If the price is right and it has it..........okay. I find a lot of seeming bargains on 2wd units which will still do the job at the end of the day and cost less........

In 35 years of farming, I owned ONE MFWD tractor. It was here for 9 full seasons. Then I sold it. In the meantime, I continue to do as I did BEFORE I bought that 4wd.......and do it all with 2wd tractors. On maybe 3 or 4 occasions did I wish I still had a 4wd. (And that was always snow) The 4wd I had was bought to do a specific job. (Pull a chisel plow) The tractor needed to either be 4wd OR much bigger 2wd.

4wd is nice to have. It's value is more frequently appreciated on smaller tractors. However, 4wd will make a bigger tractor perform better in harsh conditions.

In the end, my old 2wd tractors have baled, plowed, disced, planted, graded, mowed, loaded, pulled, seeded, spread, and raked everything I've ever asked.

 

[jimg]

For reference Im looking at a TL90 or TL100 and I would call that a big tractor. Is that what you all are defining as 'big'?

 

[Farmwithjunk]

For reference Im looking at a TL90 or TL100 and I would call that a big tractor. Is that what you all are defining as 'big'?

"Big" tends to be relative. For your uses, that's a bigger tractor than is absolutely required, so yes, it would be BIG. If you were a wheat farmer in Kansas with 15,000 acres, no, that's not so big.

A little too big is easier to live with than a little too small. You are looking at a hp range where you'll need to spend some major coin on the implements. That much muscle will shred lighter built equipment.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

For reference Im looking at a TL90 or TL100 and I would call that a big tractor. Is that what you all are defining as 'big'?

Duals for the TL will be clamp on style and are not the greatest as they plug up easily in some soils. With this size tractor you are better off going to a larger 2wd tractor or FWA.

 

[jimg]

A little too big is easier to live with than a little too small. You are looking at a hp range where you'll need to spend some major coin on the implements. That much muscle will shred lighter built equipment.

I was planning on the usual hay equipment...discbine, rake & baler. Id be really surpised if they werent engineered to work well w/ this machine. Im planning to rent the planter from my equipment dealer. Im not planning on any significant tillage.

Duals for the TL will be clamp on style and are not the greatest as they plug up easily in some soils. With this size tractor you are better off going to a larger 2wd tractor or FWA.


Maybe this is why they didnt like the idea...b/c they couldnt quite figure out how to fit the other tires. I know the NH dealer couldnt quite figure out how it might be done. Going bigger is still way cheaper than 4wd. IIRC 4wd adds about 5K to the price but going up a size adds only about $2k.

 

[jimg]

Let me ask the question a bit differently...in what cases would you use duals? I had the impression theyd be used for a couple reasons 1) more traction and 2) more 'lift' to spread the tractors load over a wider area. I also think that adding extra weights might be necessary to distribute the load optimally.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

For what you are wanting to use this tractor for, duals would not work. They will be too wide and you will be running over your crop. My 7710 is pushing it for width on heavy crops and that has singles pulled in tight. To put duals on would ruin it for haying. I have thought of adding duals for during tillage but so far I have been able to out of almost all the problem areas I have found.

I have never needed FWA on my 7710 while baling or cutting but I have only used it for a year and a half. So unless your fields are under water a good portion of the year like the field I ran the TL in then you will be fine with a 2wd tractor. And if you do by some chance get stuck you will know to avoid that spot next time.

I do love my FWA tractors but for haying the 2wd 7710 is great as it can turn a lot sharper then my FWA TN.

 

[AllWaysBreakinSomething]

I'm with FarmWithJunk on this one. I've not needed a FWD but a few times when pushing dirt with my Massey 1020 FEL (~21HP). I've gotten by and don't do this much.. Mostly gravel, shavings etc. When I need a little extra traction I use the rear-end lockup (differential) to get that extra push.

You want need the FWD for baling hay as you want be doing this during or just after a rain anyways. I would suggest if your pulling a large hay trailer then you better get more than a compact tractor. Those things are dangerous since the trailer and hay weights much more than the tractor.

I use a Massey 165 (52HP)to run a square baler and hay accumulator and the tractor hardly works. I rent the baler and accumulator from my neighbor. I'd really suggest buying an accumulator and grabber if your going to be baling much hay. They save your back, time, and money.

If your not scared to buy used... Buy from someone local, then spend the extra money on the implements... You can't do much with just a tractor except pull.

Good luck on your purchase... Below is some links to grabbers and accumulators.

Hay Bale Accumulator Hay Balers
Kuhns Mfg. Hay Accumulators

 

[jimg]

Let me be clear...Im NOT planning to use duals for haying...just for tillage *if* I need the extra traction. I'm really not planning to do anything other than very light tillage at that.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Then just get the biggest 2wd tractor you can and go with it. Even with a 2wd you can plow, disc and plant without any trouble as long as you run the proper size equipment. You can pull a big disc on dry land but when things get a little wet you are done. So just make sure you have the right size equipment and you will be fine.

I toyed with the idea of adding duals to my 7710 but the only time it would be of any benifit is while discing. I couldn't see myself wasting the time to toss the duals on and off every time I switched from the plow to the disc.

So to answer your original question, yes, you can add duals to the TL if you want to but chances are you will never need to or want to. One thing that might come into play is to find out if the TL was designed to handle duals. Last thing you want to do is break an axle.

 

[slowzuki]

The TL or TN you're talking about isn't a big tractor, it would be considered a utility tractor around here, ie the main tractor on the farm used for haying feeding and everything. The big tractors are reserved for tillage and hauling heavy leads.

I would check the size of that no-till planter because it is one of the heaviest implements around normally. It has to accomplish in one pass tasks that were split up before. My friend has 70-90 hp tractors for everything he normally does but his no till planter is the only reason he owns a big TW20 with fwa and duals on the back. None of their other machines will move it in the damp spring soil. The planter is a White and is not that large, maybe 10-12 ft wide or so?

I would get the fwa, I have been spoiled having the main tractor with fwa and loader and doing the heavier stuff with a big 2wd. If anything I would get a smaller fwa and spend the saving on an older large bare bones 2wd for plowing and to have a second tractor while haying.

I'm currently on the very small side of things with a 50 hp kubota doing our mowing and baling for upwards of 6000 bales a season and our partners have a larger 2wd Case/IH that we split the work with.

The 2wd Case can do almost everything but we have wet summers so it gets stuck a fair amount when mowing. After the hay is cut the sod dries by the time the baler is over the ground.

We also have snow here in the winters and their 2wd isn't much good for the wet spring and fall. Once the ground freezes its good again for a while until we lots of snow and ice.

 

[jimg]

I think around here a TL isn't considered that big...its just big to me.

I didn't get the mdl number but its either a 6' or 7' Great Plains end wheel drill. The dealer didn't mention that the TL would have any problems pulling it. I could check w/ him but I'm pretty sure he would have said something b/c he knew what sort of machine I was interested in. My application might be slightly different than your friends. I'm going to checimally burn down my fields and then no till into that. Perhaps the residue will be enough to give better traction than bare soil. If I were going to operate in a tilled field I'm sure I'd need 4WD. The soil around here tends toward a moderate to very high clay content and is like extra sticky grease when it gets wet.

The loader work I'm planning isn't considerable...using the tractor as a fork lift to load/move bales. Then again loaders seem to invite 'mission creep' so perhaps moving other materials might be in the cards too. This is the only reason I can think of right now that would make me want 4WD. I'm going to need the HP to run a discbine so I can't downsize by going to 4WD. Then again duals and a locking rear differential might get me over that occassional hump?

What sort of mowers are you all pulling w/ the Kubota/Case? I'm surpised that a bigger machine would get stuck. Is it hilly there?

 

[slowzuki]

Thats a big difference in drill size from my friends, so you sound like you're in the ball park. They don't burn down the fields, they plant through last years residue.

It is rolling hills here but very wet. We are using a NH 489 haybine (9 ft w conditioning). The kubota can pull it at 7 mph in perfect cutting conditions on the flat or downhill. Going up we have to slow way down.

Normally 4-5 mph is all that is comfortable to sit on the seat at, and if we get into bad cutting conditions it is down to 3 mph or we get clogs.

I've found the loader becomes indispensible on the regular tractor. It ends up getting used in all weather for all sorts of tasks. And no matter the size you always seem to load it to max capacity.

If you don't handle manure, don't have any slopes and don't plan on selling your machine you probably can skip the 4wd but I can tell you for my own use 4wd makes a smaller tractor able to do things an increase in size just doesn't do.

Don't know if there is a good case for it but running in 4wd doing tillage can decrease fuel consumption quite a bit too. My friends tractors in planting season are burning 400-500 gallons of fuel a day so it is something they are concerned about, don't know how much you would use.

 

[redlevel]

I believe the TL-90 is rated at about 76 hp. I used a 76hp NH tractor, a 6640 with 2 wheel drive, bought used, for four years pulling a 650 NH baler and a 616 disc cutter. It would have handled a much larger cutter, but the baler, which was NH's medium size machine at that time, was all it wanted. It did a good job with the baler, I just mean that anything larger would have been too large. I made 1200 lb+ bales, 4 by about 5.5 feet, and the loader and tractor handled one on the loader and one on the 3pt hitch spear without a problem. Did a wonderful job transporting and stacking the bales. It was probably the most comfortable tractor I have owned and used. I did very little tillage work with the tractor, but when I did I pulled a 7 shank high clearance heavy duty MF chisel, a 10 ft lift type disc, and a 4-16" bottom ford moldboard plow. It handled all these handily in our semi-stiff soils. These implements were probably a little small for the tractor, but they were what I had.
I never felt I could have done a better job with 4wd. I put just over 2000 hours on the tractor and sold it for about $2500. less than I paid for it. A neighbor is using it to move logs at his sawmll.

In my part of the country at least, 2wd tractors will bring as much used, as a percentage of new purchase price, as will 4wd tractors. We had this discussion before, but to say you are limiting resale opportunities with a 2wd machine just isn't so in my locality. You don't need duals for what you want to do, either.

 

[slowzuki]

That is a good point, in my area 2wd's depreciate at exceptionally high rates which is great when buying a used tractor that you plan to run for a long time but terrible if you like to keep a new tractor on the farm.

Your local conditions are a better guide for this part.

Again, I'm a big fan of having a utility tractor with 4wd and loader and a bigger cheap 2wd for tillage and big work.

I'm looking to upsize our kubota to something that can handle a discbine in the next few years. We down sized from a 70 hp 4wd cabbed loadered international to the kubota but I miss the size of the other tractor when haying. Have to get a hay accumulater system up and running first though.

 

[Renze]

We have 4 tractors, a retired 1964 Deutz D50, a 1965 Zetor 2011 for manure spreading and the hay rake, and running the street sweep around the yard, a 1976 Zetor 6718 which is used for mowing, slurry spreading and landscape contracting. then we have the 5245 as a general duty tractor, heavy tillage and loader.

When ploughing 3 furrow 16" i have put it to the test and dropped it into 2wd in the furrow and the tractor slowly stopped while spinning the wheels.
We run the same implements with a 50 hp 4wd as our neighbors do with their 80 hp 2wd Valtra and Ursus tractors, for the very heavy work we run in a slower gear than them, but on the average and lighter jobs we save quite a few buckets of diesel, due to the smaller, more efficient engine.

WE used to have an old loader on the Deutz D50, and last year i've put a more modern self levelling loader on the 5245 fwd. I can tell you it's not just the 1,5 ton of weight that makes the difference between both tractors, but that Deutz was absolutely useless as a loader tractor off the pavement.
It got stuck as soon as it saw a slight mud spot, the weight of just the empty loader hanging on the front was enough to create more resistance on the front end than the rear could push.

Also, the front axles on mfwd tractors are usually 50% stronger than those on 2wd's

we run the same ploughs, cultivators, share manure tankers with neighbours that get stuck with 80 hp 2wd where we can do our job with a nimble 3 cylinder 50 hp 4wd burning less fuel overall, while having the same turning radius as the bigger 4 cylinder 80 hp 2wd's.

For me it's an easy decision, and no doubt there are people that swear by betting on more horses rather than 2wd.
actually you shouldnt listen to any of us and spend your hard earned cash just the way you feel best with