Air Filters??

   / Air Filters?? #21  
I have a photo of an oil bath
air cleaner for everyone
to see if desired.

The oil bath air cleaners efficiency
is also increased a huge amount by
using a cyclone precleaner on the
intake of the oil bath air cleaner.

I will try up load it shortly
 
   / Air Filters??
  • Thread Starter
#22  
You might want to tell Kubota they have it all wrong in their service manuals:laughing:
The BX24 workshop manual on page G-18 specifically says to blow out the filter with compressed air under 30 PSI and to replace it after every 6 cleanings:cool:
They even go on to say if oily to wash it in detergent, rinse well, dry it, and inspect it for damage.

YEP-- the L2800/L3400 has the same directions...

J
 
   / Air Filters??
  • Thread Starter
#23  
I have a photo of an oil bath
air cleaner for everyone
to see if desired.

The oil bath air cleaners efficiency
is also increased a huge amount by
using a cyclone precleaner on the
intake of the oil bath air cleaner.

I will try up load it shortly

Oil bath...
I read somewhere NOT to do this as it will cause dirt to stick to the filter....
maybe that was for small pushmowers etc...


FYI-- I did not get that filter today....

later,
J
 
   / Air Filters??
  • Thread Starter
#24  
TEG--- do you have and inner and an outer?

I could swear I only have a single filter...

J
 
   / Air Filters?? #25  
You had an oil centrifuge on the mercedes
Nope - I had a bypass filter - but it wasn't a centrifuge: it was actually a specially modified MotorGuard filter, modd'ed and setup by an old boy from down in Texas, by the name of Ralph Woods.

MotorGuard likes to sell 'em for air filtration these days (alot of folks use 'em on plasma cutters .....), now that the original founders have retired ..... the new management guys don't wanna hear about no steekin' oil filtration ....

It used a single roll of TP (toilet paper) as the filtration medium and flow was restricted by means of an orifice (.0625" IIRC), to ensure that it wasn't starving the engine of oil ....... filtered down to the sub-micron level:
 

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   / Air Filters?? #26  
RadarTech,

Can't use this one...it's being too practical.
Follow me now.
 
   / Air Filters?? #27  

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   / Air Filters?? #28  
I haven't gotten around to getting the mounting brackets and plumbing for the Spinner fabbed (it requires a 1" ID drain back to the sump/oil pan) - the Sprinter's engine compartment doesn't have alot of extra room, so it's a bit of a challenge .......
 
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   / Air Filters?? #29  
I am unsure if the kubota would have the speed for the centrifuge,
Yeah ..... it's small engine and the oil pump might not have the flow .... that's why I was considering the MotorGuard with the single restriction orifice - it's about half the size (total area) of the orifices on the Spinner ..... (although the Spinner does have a built-in low pressure cut-out, that cuts off the oil flow when the oil pressure is below 15 or 20 psi)

....... I think Ralph might even have one of the MotorGuards on his garden tractor .....

I know that Racor makes or did make an oil filter for very fine filtration at one time.
I believe the Spinners were Racor's product ...... before they sold the product line to Mann-Hummel ..... ;)

Are the head race and tail race tunnels for that mess still intact?
Dunno ..... haven't been back there since I worked on it ..... what, 30 years ago ?

..... boy, that brings back some memories .... pumping 'crete for the penstock tunnels and luggin them pipes (with a snotload of 'crete still in 'em) back up the tunnel as we broke off section after section ..... :mur:

The only thing I regret is I never got to ride the chopper up to the top ..... although from what I heard, camping out in tents up on top in the middle of winter really wasn't all it was cracked up to be ....

I have forgotten about the PGE projects but was that the one with pumped hydro storage up hill after going through the turbines or gravity down hill and discharge to waste.
Yup - dump to meet peak demand during the day .... Courtright Reservoir down thru the mountain to Wishon Reservoir ..... and then reverse the turbines and pump it back up to the top for tomorrow:

Courtright Reservoir

Not exactly efficient .... but it met a need ....

the oil bath filters are the best ones and you can mount mutiple units together for engine intakes to clean the air it needs for combustion. My link for oil bath air cleaners should still be here if you search for it.
Thanks - I'll have a look - sounds like good stuff.

the oxy catalyst scrubbers we had were no match for water scrubbers with thier efficiency because the shovels had to be left idling as they leaked too much air and the PTX purifiers were no better for the same reasons- they would never clean them with an oven to temperature with a catalyst oven to burn off the residue .... the use of the high sulphur fuels with the dry scrubbers was bad because of the sulphur and it created a continuos fog no matter how hot we ran them because we never cooked the pellets to clean them nor did we use an manomometer to determine the efficiency of the purifier beds in the scrubbers. nor did they check the PTX purifiers.
Yeah ..... continuous fog .... I remember that ..... in fact, I think I still spit some of it up every now and then ..... :D

most if not all our engine issues came from low fresh air volume and poor air circulation which was always a huge issue
Yup .... huge challenges for maintaining equipment .... ;)
 
   / Air Filters?? #30  
BTW, I forgot to mention it .... with 960 hours on the clock, I'm on outer air filter No.2 for the B2910 ....

No. 1 was blown out with low-pressure compressed air repeatedly at various times, and washed with water and liquid dishwashing detergent at least once - probably twice, can't recall exactly .....

When I wash them out, I like to fill a bucket with soapy water so that the level comes just up to the top of the filter (but not over), when the filter is placed in the bucket vertically ... low enough so that no dirty water (and dirt particles) will come over the top and into the opening to the inside of the filter.

Agitate up and down, and side to side to taste .....

No 1. is sitting up in the shed, waiting to be washed yet one more time ....
 
   / Air Filters?? #31  
You folks have got me all confused on filters again.

I can recall some of the Toilet paper rolls for oil filters from many a year ago. Seemed they went out of fashion quite quickly.:)

My little Kubota B7100 had inlet with a cyclonic type prechamber that caught the big stuff. It only had one air filter and when plugged it would effect engine performance. Think most of the other equipment has something prefilter that will be similar.:D

I can recall the oilbath air filters on the farm tractors and even cleaning them.

Then there is being told by the Job site Cat Mechanics that dry element filters were better. That's why Cat used only dry elements at the time.[ 40 years ago]:D

Now I can see were the dry element filters, it's not really paper, can be designed to a particular limiting pore size but haven't a clue how that would be done on an oil bath filter. :)
 
   / Air Filters?? #32  
TEG--- do you have and inner and an outer?

I could swear I only have a single filter...

J
It's an Option, when I asked my dealer about it, I was told that I didn't need it. The reason I changed my air filter (2x) was the fact that I used my tractor a bunch building a couple of roads and it was very dusty. Now that the roads are done... I'll be changing my tune instead of air filters...
 
   / Air Filters?? #33  
You folks have got me all confused on filters again.
Uh-oh .... :D

I can recall some of the Toilet paper rolls for oil filters from many a year ago. Seemed they went out of fashion quite quickly.
Yup - in the world of "Madison Avenue" Advertising and Public Relations (which is often fraught with misleading info - if not blatant, outright lies) toilet paper as a filtration medium wasn't exactly great "positioning" - it lent it itself to much derisive commentary, and "potty humor" .....

Of course, that completely skips over and totally ignores what the actual results were, and that, as a matter of course, paper itself as a filtration medium isn't an uncommon thing ...... it just can't be that type of paper:

NOOOOOO !!! .... Henry please, please tell me that you didn't put that paper in my Ford ..... :laughing:

One has to ask themselves:

Who would be interested in seeing such a product not succeed ?

Two parties come immediately to mind:

1. People/companies that refine and sell oil ...

2. People/companies that make and sell a different type of filter .... (one that is much more expensive, in terms of replacement)

And there is a third factor which plays into it, and goes back to a comment that I made earlier in this thread, which has to do with the efficiency of a filtration media to capture dirt and contaminants, and is part of the "magic triangle" of filtration:

Filter efficiency vs. overall size of the filtration media vs. filter longevity (frequency of change or replacement)

If a filter is extremely good at capturing even the smallest contaminants, it is not going to last as long as one which isn't, given equal sizes of filtering media and the same dirt load - because it will clog up and need to be changed sooner.

People, to some degree, are often lazy - vehicle manufacturers, realizing this, then figure out a way to come up with a so-called "better solution" (albeit a more expensive one) - which allows for changing the oil filter less frequently (but changing the oil more often than one would actually have to, if one were using a better filter) - and then this is sold as an "advantage" - even though it results in poorer filtration, costs more overall, and allows wasting a valuable, finite resource.

Dependency on foreign oil a problem ?

Well, consider this: In the United States there are roughly 247 million registered motor vehicles on the road today - cars (136 million), trucks (110 million), and buses (1 million) - which doesn't even take into account other things like tractors and construction machinery, etc.

Let's just look at cars - since it is doubtful that very many of them are running a bypass filtration system (many larger trucks and busses probably already do run one - since the economics are more significant, in terms of a commercial operation)

Now imagine that you eliminate 2 out every 3 oil changes (a very conservative estimate) .... figuring an average sump size of 5 quarts .... that's a total savings of 1,360,000,000 quarts of oil (yup - that BILLION with a very big capital "B") .... or 340,000,000 gallons of oil .....

That is not an insignificant amount of a finite resource, nor is it an insignificant cost (to our economy)

The real beauty of the MotorGuard system is how cheap replacement filter media is, and how relatively clean and easy it is to change:

Let the filter drain for 30 minutes or so after the vehicle is shutoff, unscrew the T-handle and swap the media and reassemble - the actual media change takes maybe 5 minutes .... if you are really slow ....

Of course, as with anything, the proof is in the pudding of actual results ;):
 

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   / Air Filters?? #34  
Of course, as with anything, the proof is in the pudding of actual results ;):

Real results but I don't know what they mean!:confused2::ashamed:
 
   / Air Filters?? #35  
Back about 66 the company I drove for had some of them toiletpaper filters installed to see if they were worth it or not. Now back in that time oil filtering just wasn't what it is today, and supposedly oil wasn't as good either, so it was pretty much a matter of learn as you went.
In the 50s a lot of manufacturers didn't even have what you call full flow filters on engines, and nobody had filters on transmissions or rears. I don't think anybody even thought of filtering antifreeze but then we were mostly running alcohol for antifreeze if we ran antifreeze at all and the way that cooked off filtering wouldn't have been worth much anyhow.

Me and Mushmouth were driving a matched pair of tractors and pretty much hauling the same route mile for mile ahuling more or less the same weight to boot. The dang filters on them engines were long suckers in what you'd want to call long 1# coffee cans with a bolt up through the middle, and a real pain in the patootie to change I tell you. I believe we changed oil about every 4000 miles back then, and filters too. Later on the company went to changing filters every 5000 miles and adding oil to fill up the new filters, and doing a complete oil & filter change every 10,000 miles. The heavy hauling trucks like mine got changed more often cause our engines worked harder for every mile we went. My tractor got a pair of them chrome plated Frantz filters, had em mounted on the back of the sleeper cab cause there was noplace else to mount them, and Mush's tractor didn't.

Now like I say we went everyplace together, burned the same fule and had the same lube oil. There was even a little plastic dome thing you could sort of see thru in the return line to the oilpan on the engine, and it was a good thing the fellow who installed them filters told me about black oil not really being dirty or I might have parked her after the first few hours. He explained that black was just a thing that happened to lube oil with ash type deterggent in it when it got hot, and proved it tight there with one of them coleman stoves and a frying pan. Now we was probably overly protective of them engines first few thousand miles, pulling the dipstick twice a day and such, but that's the way you run a test.

About the first thing we noticed was one day we ran heavy and slow with rain coming down all day, and that evening when we pulled the sticks after supper Mush's truck showed the foamy whitish looking oil you expect in them circumstances, and mine looked just fine. I sorta figured that was cause them rolls of toilet paper was taking the water out of the oil. That was what the brochure said it would do and it sure seemed to.

We also had to draw oil samples every so often and send them off to a lab, had these glass jars with a lid that slipped into a cardboard tube that had a screw on top just like a mayonase jar that was all labelled up so all you needed do was find the postoffice and ship her off. We ran that test for the better part of a year, and every time it came back that Mush had contaminants inhis sample and mine was clean. Only drawback I saw to them filters was having to change the toilet paper. I sure didn't want to be having to walk in no store and ask for 6 rolls of TP for my truck and have people look at me all funny so I got a cardboard box and carried 6 rolls in the sleepercab. I forget where we were this one time but the fellow at the truckstop gave me some mouth about my truck needing to wipe its a** so when he wasn't looking me and Mush went inteh bathroom there and swapped out all their paper for the stuff I pulled out of my filters. I bet that went over real good when some driver was sitting there doing his business and reached for the paper, but we didn't get to see cause we hauled out of there right quick. Another time we got the bright idea to see how one of them used rolls would burn and had us a little campfire right there in the lot. Let me tell you a roll of TP full of oil burns a long time and it burns hot. They did come in handy when we was up north in wintertime, for when youhad to thaw out a frozen air tank. You could jam a used roll into a paint can and carry it in the toolbox, and when you had a froze up tank just stuff a stick inthat roll and use it instead of a roadflare to thaw the tank.

Well after that first year of testing the company had them filter stacks put on just about everything, and they worked out well. I don't think we went to more time between oilchanges though. Also don't ever recall one of those engines needing any rebuild ahead of schedule because of them filters either. The mechanic in the shop saved the used TP and burned it in this woodstove he had in the shop to stay warm with. He figured they worked better than busted up pallets, and you could use em to get a fire started too.
 
   / Air Filters?? #36  
Real results but I don't know what they mean!:confused2::ashamed:
Trying giving the following link a read and see if it makes more sense:

Report Explanation

You can hold your cursor over various items on the report and it will give an explanation of what it is.

One thing to keep in mind when looking at a UOA (used oil analysis) is that in terms of wear metals, you mostly are looking for trends (somewhat opposed to a single number or value ....)
 
   / Air Filters?? #38  
Hello Egon,


If a cyclone precleaner is used on the inlet of the oil bath precleaner it equals or surpasses the filtration of a paper filter with zero restriction affecting the Hg. pressure gradient:thumbsup:


They did not like cleaning them thats why; because they needed to wash them with diesel fuel or wipe them out with a lot of paper towels and properly dispose of them.


leonz
 
   / Air Filters?? #39  
Oil bath...
I read somewhere NOT to do this as it will cause dirt to stick to the filter....
maybe that was for small pushmowers etc...


FYI-- I did not get that filter today....

later,
J

No,


wont happen because the mesh captures the splash if any; Mann filter has a combination oil bath/dry canister units which are small in size and you can make them even more efficient by placing a cyclone precleaner it and make the oil bath air cleaners even better-equal to or better than paper filters.


It will happen if you over fill the oil line in the base but otherwise no, think about why they tell you to oil the foam air filters that go ove the paper ones- UH HUH
 
   / Air Filters?? #40  
All technical specs, engineering data, and physics aside - our local Kubota dealer will tell you he replaces/repairs more diesel engines due to lack of maintenance on air filters than any other reason. He notes on single-element filter systems - to never clean element, always replace. His background was a diesel mechanic for a motor line company before ending up as owner of a tractor dealership.
 

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