Aluminum really inferior for tractors???

[RobJ]

Actually, the largest most powerful pulling tractors built in the world are 4X4. Duh!! I thought they had "big" things in Texas! To pull the big disks, plows etc., most of our larger Ag tractors have triples on each corner.

I was actually waiting for this...I guess you missed my point about pulling a 12-16 row disk or planter. You need heavy and 4x4, and these tractors aren't light, in the areas where it's flat, no trees, and a single field may be 500-2000-acres, like un in the Texas panhandle, it's the only way to pull a big plow. Plenty of farmers out there including my family that did fine for 50 years without a 4x4. Heck most of their pickups were not 4x4(actually my Granddaddy and one uncle never had a 4x4 pickup).

But really, a FEL is useless on a 2wd tractor. You still stand behind that? I bet you could do your work just as well with a 2wd tractor. If it's to muddy just wait. So you can get into a muddy field with a 4x4 tractor, the rut damage to the hay field I wouldn't think is worth the pride of just knowing you didn't get stuck.

Rob

 

[RobJ]

Yeah.. I'm not sure where that came from... cause i dind't say or imply it by any stretch... All I said was my 2wd tractor w/ loader was better than me and a wheel barrow.. ( no 4wd comparison ). And that if I can't get somewhere in 2wd on a 4wd tractor.. then I ain't trying... been there.. done that.. had to dig in muck for hours... lost my tshirt.. )

Soundguy

Hehe, I thought you lost a shoe to!!

I think 4x4's are fine tractors, they are just not always needed and certainly a 2wd tractor with a FEL loader is not useless.

 

[Soundguy]

I permanently lost the shoe... I sunk up to my thigh in a wet muck spot after digging my ramps out... the t-shirt was just 'ruined'.. I had to hose of fthe muck at my friends house just so i could get back in my truck and take my muddy tractor home. Tshirt had been white.. became a oil check rag after that day..

soundguy

 

[Bob_Young]

What about brittleness of aluminum compaired to cast iron. I've seen a few aluminum structures that got stress fractures in places of strss like corner gussets and bolt holes. ( I guess you could go with thicker aluminum vs c/iron.. be as strong and lighter.. and have a beefier machine... not discounting that idea.. etc.

Soundguy

That's the issue as I see it, Chris. Detecting stress cracks in aluminum in critical structure and castings is one of the highest priorities of the aircraft maintenance industry. I have no figures, but over the years, the cost of detecting and repairing cracks in landing gear castings, crankcase castings, wing spars, propellor blades, and skin must easily be in the 10s of billions. Usually these failures occur due to metal fatigue rather than outright abuse. When you consider that aircraft operation is a somewhat controlled environment compared to tractor usage, you wonder whether aluminum load bearing structure in a tractor is appropriate.

One of the strongest aluminum alloys that's in common use is 2024 T3 which is an alloy with copper. It's used for aircraft skins and is very strong. It's also brittle and has to be bent carefully to avoid cracking. It's very susceptible to corrosion and sheet stock is coated with pure aluminum (Alclad) to stave off the effects. In order to get the strength this alloy provides, the ductility, toughness and corrosion resistance of pure aluminum has been sacrificed. Like most alloys, a compromise has been made to enhance a desired property. I don't know what alloy is used for castings but I imagine that too is a compromise.

The point is, with billions of maintenance dollars at stake, the aircraft industry has been unable to eliminate stress cracking of aluminum structure regardless of the alloy used. How can we assume it won't become an issue over the life of a tractor?
Bob

 

[_RaT_]

I was actually waiting for this...I guess you missed my point about pulling a 12-16 row disk or planter. You need heavy and 4x4, and these tractors aren't light, in the areas where it's flat, no trees, and a single field may be 500-2000-acres, like un in the Texas panhandle, it's the only way to pull a big plow. Plenty of farmers out there including my family that did fine for 50 years without a 4x4. Heck most of their pickups were not 4x4(actually my Granddaddy and one uncle never had a 4x4 pickup).

But really, a FEL is useless on a 2wd tractor. You still stand behind that? I bet you could do your work just as well with a 2wd tractor. If it's to muddy just wait. So you can get into a muddy field with a 4x4 tractor, the rut damage to the hay field I wouldn't think is worth the pride of just knowing you didn't get stuck.

Rob

Things are changing though. Big and heavy and ground COMPACTING is now one of the big concerns. Thats why bigger floating tires and treaded tractors are being seen out here in California where crops can be grown year around. The Michelin tire site once had a great article about this. Now what this has to do with aluminum really inferior for tractors is anyones guess. I suppose an all aluminum tractor would be lighter, but could it pull a 50' moldboard?

 

[Soundguy]

That was my prime concern in reguards to aluminum. I think if you have any flexing.. the aluminum work wardens.. and is naturally brittle though strong.. and cracks.

We had a mack truck with a rear/rear end that had an aluminum housing.. had to replace it with cast due to a crack that ran from a mounting flange bolt and made a half circumference around the housing to the other mounting flange bolt.. Thick material.. 3/4 and 1". We got a CI unit from a junkyard to replace it, after we had it tig welded once and it cracked almost immediatly at the same place, with more stress cracks radiating from the repair...

I know CI is heavier.. but I wonder if you take into account it's ductility and durability in a thick casting... I wonder what the long term issues will be with aluminum castings?

Soundguy

That's the issue as I see it, Chris. Detecting stress cracks in aluminum in critical structure and castings is one of the highest priorities of the aircraft maintenance industry. I have no figures, but over the years, the cost of detecting and repairing cracks in landing gear castings, crankcase castings, wing spars, propellor blades, and skin must easily be in the 10s of billions. Usually these failures occur due to metal fatigue rather than outright abuse. When you consider that aircraft operation is a somewhat controlled environment compared to tractor usage, you wonder whether aluminum load bearing structure in a tractor is appropriate.

One of the strongest aluminum alloys that's in common use is 2024 T3 which is an alloy with copper. It's used for aircraft skins and is very strong. It's also brittle and has to be bent carefully to avoid cracking. It's very susceptible to corrosion and sheet stock is coated with pure aluminum (Alclad) to stave off the effects. In order to get the strength this alloy provides, the ductility, toughness and corrosion resistance of pure aluminum has been sacrificed. Like most alloys, a compromise has been made to enhance a desired property. I don't know what alloy is used for castings but I imagine that too is a compromise.

The point is, with billions of maintenance dollars at stake, the aircraft industry has been unable to eliminate stress cracking of aluminum structure regardless of the alloy used. How can we assume it won't become an issue over the life of a tractor?
Bob

 

[john_bud]

This has been a fun thread to read. Lot's of opinions voiced and experiences shared. (some might be taking it a bit too close to the heart though...)

As for Al vs Fe --> does it really matter?? I mean, if you buy a small light tractor Al is probably the best material. If you buy a larger heavier tractor Fe is probably better. Both will crack and fail over time. My old Ford 4140 TLB had the rear end housing and transmission housing both replaced due to non-repairable cracks. All cast iron. Not to say Al would have been crack free, just that every material will crack with time and use.

Interesting posts on 2wd vs 4wd. The Ford is 2wd with a 3000# hoe on the back. It can't pick up 2500# in the bucket at back up a 15% incline. It also can't power into a pile of dirt/shale. My Kubota 4wd can power into a pile that stops the ford cold and PUSH THE PILE. The Kubota is about 3500# lighter -- 4wd is a big help. Of course, the max bucket load in the ford is 3000# and the kubota can only do 1000#. Different tractors, different intended uses. There is also no way, the 14' hoe could be mounted on the Kubota !!

So what's better? don't know.

jb

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Personally I'm waiting for a Titanium tractor. Stronger than any of the above mentioned choices, lightweight but able to easily be loaded with static weights when ballast or traction is needed.

 

[SkyPup]

A 4WD Titanium tractor would be nice, no rust either!

 

[RobJ]

Things are changing though. Big and heavy and ground COMPACTING is now one of the big concerns. Thats why bigger floating tires and treaded tractors are being seen out here in California where crops can be grown year around. The Michelin tire site once had a great article about this. Now what this has to do with aluminum really inferior for tractors is anyones guess. I suppose an all aluminum tractor would be lighter, but could it pull a 50' moldboard?

I wonder how the track driven Cat and JD tractors have faired in popularity since they compact the ground less. Of course those are sort of 2wd aren't they? They sure do look cool and I'd love to drive one one day.

 

[Egon]

A really nice Titanium framed bicycle would also be nice!

 

[RobJ]

As for Al vs Fe --> does it really matter?? I mean, if you buy a small light tractor Al is probably the best material. If you buy a larger heavier tractor Fe is probably better. Both will crack and fail over time. My old Ford 4140 TLB had the rear end housing and transmission housing both replaced due to non-repairable cracks. All cast iron. Not to say Al would have been crack free, just that every material will crack with time and use.

Doesn't CI have a longer trackrecord than cast AL? Iron was cheaper, easier to get to, cheap to make. Got to be over a 100 years old, I couldn't find anything on google. CA has to be a lot younger.

If I had a B tractor with a MMM for mostly mowing, AL would be great, lighter, easier to transport, etc. For HD stuff I'll take CI on the bigger tractors.

 

[Egon]

I am not sure but I think it would be reasonable to assume all steels, all cast irons and all aluminums may not be created equally.

Therefore it would seem that choosing any of the materials suitable for the application would work in a proper design.

 

[Dargo]

A 4WD Titanium tractor would be nice, no rust either!

Hot dang it!!!! You beat me to what I was going to post! Although I'm quite certain it would be cost prohibitive, I wouldn't bet that in the future that some sort of alloy might not be the standard. Having mostly had relatively heavy tractors, I see that some chores would be much better suited for a tractor that had a much larger hp/weight ratio. Everyone knows that it is extremely easy and extremely cheap to add weight, but if you have a heavy tractor to begin with, you can't take it off. You are then simply left debating why you like your 'heavy' tractor while it is totally unsuitable for certain jobs.

I really can see a point in the future where one tractor can be both. If you don't think light weight metals cannot be just as strong (usually stronger) than steel, cast iron etc., you are way behind the times. I think that right now it's simply the cost factor that prevents one single tractor from being superior at jobs that require less weight but a lot of hp, and then also being superior at doing jobs that require lots of weight and plenty of hp.

 

[Soundguy]

I wonder how the track driven Cat and JD tractors have faired in popularity since they compact the ground less. Of course those are sort of 2wd aren't they? They sure do look cool and I'd love to drive one one day.

I guess you might call them 2x2's .? (grin)

Lots of people using big rubber tracked cat tractors to pull dirt pans around my aeas..

Soundguy

 

[scott_vt]

Personally I'm waiting for a Titanium tractor. Stronger than any of the above mentioned choices, lightweight but able to easily be loaded with static weights when ballast or traction is needed.

Hi Bob,
Well I can tell you if it ever caught on fire I wouldnt want to try and put it out

 

[SkyPup]

Titanium does not catch on fire, magnesium does.....

 

[scott_vt]

Titanium does not catch on fire, magnesium does.....

OPPS Thanks Skypup, senior moment

Sorry

 

[Dargo]

Titanium does not catch on fire, magnesium does.....

Yeah, and for some reason, it's really hard to put out...

 

[_RaT_]

I wonder how the track driven Cat and JD tractors have faired in popularity since they compact the ground less. Of course those are sort of 2wd aren't they? They sure do look cool and I'd love to drive one one day.

Well, heres one that is 4WD