ANOTHER fire fighting query

[JDgreen227]

CTF, I often try to start threads that will provoke interest....and I was sure you of all members would have an opinion to render on this one. For what it's worth, I could have done a Google search for my query, but for me, TBN is a lot more informative and I would trust the input of one TBN member over a dozen Google sources!!!

 

[ericher69]

Jdgreen227;

A few things to look at here;

What class material is burning

A-wood, paper etc
B-gasoline, oils etc
C-electrical charged

Water performs it's job to extinguish fire in a few ways

In a solid bore (garden hose) it would definitely be better to extinguish the seat of the fire

In a fog (pressure washer) it would create an excellent fog nozzle atomizing the water and allowing it to easily convert to steam absorbing the heat from the fire effectively lowering the temperature below the ignition point (given a container such as a closed room)

Water in a fog used on a fire expands 1700-1900 times depending on the textbook that you read

Both methods would be effective depending on the fuel load and the current stage of the fire (incipient, free burning)

Class a foam would help in both scenarios by lowering the surface friction of the water and allowing it to "soak in" instead of only sitting on the surface

Hope this helps

 

[JDgreen227]

Jdgreen227;

A few things to look at here;

What class material is burning

A-wood, paper etc
B-gasoline, oils etc
C-electrical charged

Water performs it's job to extinguish fire in a few ways

In a solid bore (garden hose) it would definitely be better to extinguish the seat of the fire

In a fog (pressure washer) it would create an excellent fog nozzle atomizing the water and allowing it to easily convert to steam absorbing the heat from the fire effectively lowering the temperature below the ignition point (given a container such as a closed room)

Water in a fog used on a fire expands 1700-1900 times depending on the textbook that you read

Both methods would be effective depending on the fuel load and the current stage of the fire (incipient, free burning)

Class a foam would help in both scenarios by lowering the surface friction of the water and allowing it to "soak in" instead of only sitting on the surface

Hope this helps

Thanks for making that point, when I originally started thread I SHOULD have stated the query was about a Class A fire.

 

[Part timer]

CTF, I often try to start threads that will provoke interest....and I was sure you of all members would have an opinion to render on this one. For what it's worth, I could have done a Google search for my query, but for me, TBN is a lot more informative and I would trust the input of one TBN member over a dozen Google sources!!!

Plus TBN you get several different opinions and suggestions from past experiences, not just "what the book says"

Sounds like you have an idea of what you need to do to protect yourself and your property just remember SAFETY FIRST!!!

A burning tree, a lawn, a motor vehicle or even a home is not worth losing your life over!!!

"THUMBS UP"
Chris

 

[RobertN]

Adding soap would have made it easier. Next time you have a burn pile, or campfire, try putting some dish soap in with the water in the bucket. It breaks the surface tension, and allows the water to absorb better.

That is why we have foam on the fire engines. And, sometimes have a couple bottles of dishsoap in one of the compartments...

I have demostrated this at Boy Scout camps. Especially, after our Scoutmaster got a nasty note from the park ranger after the adult groups campfire reignited after only being doused with water(and not enough...).

For the original question, I would rather have the 10gpm. But, as has been mentioned, 10gpm does not do much...

Your post reminded me of an incident that happened about 600 feet away from my home about 20 years ago. I was push mowing outside and saw smoke and flames there in a vacant lot, the weather was very dry and some moron had thrown out firecrackers and set the grass afire. I ran to my garage and threw several 5 gallon pails with lids into my car trunk, backed up to my hose and filled them then five minutes later I had about 40 gallons of water and I roared out to the fire, by the time I had stopped two volunteer firemen were attacking the blaze with small portable 1A extinguishers, the three of us managed to douse it all. One of them is now the local fire chief and I am on VERY good terms with him....:thumbsup:

 

[JDgreen227]

NOW you have got me wondering how much more effective the 3 gpm from the pressure washer in the original question would have been if you used the chemical injector on that for foam or dish soap...to be honest I have never heard of using dish soap mixed with water on a fire...thanks for the information !

 

[charliepff]

My old volunteer house used Dawn dish detergant all the time for our portable bladder bags and water cans. It works well and is cheaper then opening up a new jug of class A foam. I have also batch mixed it by dumping a gallon or two into the tank on the brush truck or a small portable dump tank. The best thing besides it being cheap, it does not gum up or hurt any of the appliance in the pump. Some of the foams can be finicky and even gel up if mixed with different brands or left to sit. A rain barrel for storage with a hald gallon of dish detergant in it with a small portable pump would help make quick work of small class A fires.

 

[txdon]

This is for a basement? What are you plans on dealing with the smoke, visibility and well as breathing?

If the fire is out, use the high-pressure for ventilation by shooting a fog stream out the window. I'm assuming you do have operable windows in the basement.

 

[JDgreen227]

This is for a basement? What are you plans on dealing with the smoke, visibility and well as breathing?

If the fire is out, use the high-pressure for ventilation by shooting a fog stream out the window. I'm assuming you do have operable windows in the basement.

LOL LOL there is no fire down in my basement shop, the question just came to mind while I was working on my power washer guns. I have several 3A-40BC's downstairs plus a centrally located, code compliant escape window.

 

[CompactTractorFan]

Sounds like you have an idea of what you need to do to protect yourself and your property just remember SAFETY FIRST!!!

A burning tree, a lawn, a motor vehicle or even a home is not worth losing your life over!!!

For sure!

 

[CompactTractorFan]

Adding soap would have made it easier. Next time you have a burn pile, or campfire, try putting some dish soap in with the water in the bucket. It breaks the surface tension, and allows the water to absorb better.

That is why we have foam on the fire engines. And, sometimes have a couple bottles of dishsoap in one of the compartments...

I have demostrated this at Boy Scout camps. Especially, after our Scoutmaster got a nasty note from the park ranger after the adult groups campfire reignited after only being doused with water(and not enough...).

For the original question, I would rather have the 10gpm. But, as has been mentioned, 10gpm does not do much...

NOW you have got me wondering how much more effective the 3 gpm from the pressure washer in the original question would have been if you used the chemical injector on that for foam or dish soap...to be honest I have never heard of using dish soap mixed with water on a fire...thanks for the information !

My old volunteer house used Dawn dish detergant all the time for our portable bladder bags and water cans. It works well and is cheaper then opening up a new jug of class A foam. I have also batch mixed it by dumping a gallon or two into the tank on the brush truck or a small portable dump tank. The best thing besides it being cheap, it does not gum up or hurt any of the appliance in the pump. Some of the foams can be finicky and even gel up if mixed with different brands or left to sit. A rain barrel for storage with a hald gallon of dish detergant in it with a small portable pump would help make quick work of small class A fires.

Forgot about the dish soap trick. Used it in a PW can and it worked pretty good. If you only put about a gallon of water/soap mixture, it's almost like CAFS. :thumbsup:

 

[RobertBrown]

NOW you have got me wondering how much more effective the 3 gpm from the pressure washer in the original question would have been if you used the chemical injector on that for foam or dish soap...to be honest I have never heard of using dish soap mixed with water on a fire...thanks for the information !

The foam used in fire suppression is different than dish soap. It's a high expansion foam, usually AFFF, sometimes fluoroprotein. Dish soap would make water more effective, but high expansion foam appears to have no water and is used for extinguishing flammable liquids by smothering the vapors
As far as the pressure washer being more effective than a garden hose?
I think it would...all things being equal. If both were in the same state of availability, I have little doubt the pressure washer would be more effective, although the chances of the fire restarting would be greater. The pressure washer would use much less water and extinguish the fire much faster, making it more effective, regardless of the type of combustibles.
Now if you were deep frying a turkey or french fries in your shop....all bets are off.:confused2:

 

[RobertN]

Dish soap is different. But, it does still act as a wetting agent.

Class A foams
Class A foams were developed in mid-1980s for fighting wildfires. Class A foams lower the surface tension of the water, which assists in the wetting and saturation of Class A fuels with water. This aids fire suppression and can prevent reignition.[2] Favorable experiences led to its acceptance for fighting other types of class A fires, including structure fires.

Class B foams
Class B foams are designed for class B fires flammable liquids (such as nail polish and White Out). The use of class A foam on a class B fire may yield unexpected results, as class A foams are not designed to contain the explosive vapors produced by flammable liquids. Class B foams have two major subtypes.

The foam used in fire suppression is different than dish soap.

 

[Smallplot]

We have one of the systems set up on our Polaris Ranger at the Fire Department and use it successfully for fighting grass fires. The class A foam also will triple the effective amount of water we carry. We can quickly put out grass fires with our system. But only with the class A foam additive and our wand which allows us to switch between foam or plain water. Class A foam is expensive.

Another thing that has not been mentioned here, speaking of grass fires, is a piece of equipment a lot of people have readily available. It is a leaf blower. Kinda throws that theory out about high pressure spreading a fire? We actually have 3 portable backpack units on our rescue and they work wonderful. Works on the principle that the wind removes not only the debris that is burning but also the wind will disturb the amount of oxygen effectively utilized by the fire. Without oxygen there is no fire. And yes you have to blow the fire back towards what has already burnt.

 

[JDgreen227]

We have one of the systems set up on our Polaris Ranger at the Fire Department and use it successfully for fighting grass fires. The class A foam also will triple the effective amount of water we carry. We can quickly put out grass fires with our system. But only with the class A foam additive and our wand which allows us to switch between foam or plain water. Class A foam is expensive.

Another thing that has not been mentioned here, speaking of grass fires, is a piece of equipment a lot of people have readily available. It is a leaf blower. Kinda throws that theory out about high pressure spreading a fire? We actually have 3 portable backpack units on our rescue and they work wonderful. Works on the principle that the wind removes not only the debris that is burning but also the wind will disturb the amount of oxygen effectively utilized by the fire. Without oxygen there is no fire. And yes you have to blow the fire back towards what has already burnt.

OP here, as much as fire scares me, I would be reluctant toting around any amount of gasoline near it, even in a sealed tank. Do the portable backpack units you mention have any type of additional shielding for the fuel tanks? I use a small electric blower to accelerate my campfires so your concept of using a larger blower to FIGHT fire seems illogical, but I am sure it works.

 

[Smallplot]

OP here, as much as fire scares me, I would be reluctant toting around any amount of gasoline near it, even in a sealed tank. Do the portable backpack units you mention have any type of additional shielding for the fuel tanks? I use a small electric blower to accelerate my campfires so your concept of using a larger blower to FIGHT fire seems illogical, but I am sure it works.

Works great and saves walking around with a flapper. Nothing special added we just use the sthil backpack model just like anyone else buys from from local farm store. We have to use the gas model for portability. They do two things at once. They remove combustable material from fire origin and also blow out the fire. The big key is blowing from unburned side towards the already burnt side. Have seen a couple first timers get real excited when going going at a fire backwards. And yes we do have infighting gear on as it does get warm.

 

[deereman75]

I think I am going to pick up a apw can sometime. It would be nice when I am welding to have a good way to put out the lawn/cool parts. (dont worry, the green lawn only smoulders a bit, and only when I burn through) Plus I can refill it for free. Now if only I could find a way to do that with my co2......

 

[deere755]

I would think the garden hose would be the best. Volume of water puts out fires not pressure. All though a garden hose isn't going to put out enough volume for much of a fire. Dish soap wouldn't be as good as class A foam but would be better then straight water. A good rule of thumb is if what you are doing isn't making a difference stop doing it and back away.

 

[deereman75]

heres an idea, what about building a nozzle like the afff extinguishers have, and putting it on an apw can full of water and dish soap. Might make it work better on a class fires.

 

[charliepff]

The foam used in fire suppression is different than dish soap. It's a high expansion foam, usually AFFF, sometimes fluoroprotein. Dish soap would make water more effective, but high expansion foam appears to have no water and is used for extinguishing flammable liquids by smothering the vapors

Like RobertN said, there are different types of foam. There are even more different types of AFFF. Especially with the ethonol fuels being developed. A lot of people do not carry this on there apparatus anymore due to not using it enough and gelling the systems up. Most keep a bank of it available if need be. Such as a trailer full of barrels or jugs. Mostly everyone I have seen is going with class A foam systems and/or CAFS. Due to there versatility and the fact that they do knock down the fire so much quicker even insurance companies are starting to like it.

OP here, as much as fire scares me, I would be reluctant toting around any amount of gasoline near it, even in a sealed tank. Do the portable backpack units you mention have any type of additional shielding for the fuel tanks? I use a small electric blower to accelerate my campfires so your concept of using a larger blower to FIGHT fire seems illogical, but I am sure it works

I have used leaf blowers many of times working with forestry. You do not use them for a direct attack but you use them to establish a fire line by blowing the loose materials ( such as leaves ) off the top layer of the ground. If used wrong you can spread the fire faster.

In my 17 years of being in the fire service one thing I can not preach the most is PREVENTION. Do not be reactive. Be proactive. There are home saftey surveys you can do that can point out problem areas in the home and shop. Keep fire extinguishers handy. If you live in a wooded area research the FIREWISE program. Make sure your kids know fire safety. If something does happen, make sure everyone is safe and away from the hazard. If you can try to control it from a safe distance then try. If not STAY AWAY from it. You do not know how many people I have treated and that have lost everything because they thought they could take care of it themselves. It also makes our job easier when we can concentrate our resources on your structure and contents vs worrying about treating you for burns or having to locate a victim still inside.