B3200 Vibration Update

[TMR]

Oh does Doosan build the Kioti's as well? I know they are built on the same assmbly plant in S Korea and you can tell to look at the models they are the same.

From speaking with both Kioti and BobCat dealers...the two tractor lines are nearly identical...almost all parts are interchangeable. Perhaps in the future BobCat may try to differentiate its' CUTs from the Kioti CUTs? Price points are pretty close also.

FWIW Tom R

P.S. Attachments are from different sources...not sure if that included FELs or not? TMR

 

[Travelover]

I worked in the noise and vibration field for a US auto company for 26 years and worked on a wide variety of gas and diesel vibration issues. I'd just like to say that with a little instrumentation, any vibration problem can be diagnosed as to cause and possible resolution actions. One may decide that the cost to fix it is prohibitive, but I'd hope that an analysis has been done and would be shared with dealers and customers.

 

[Toolguy]

I think a little clairity in diesel engine operation would help here. As to why this engine now has vibration issues that it previously had to a much lesser degree is most likely the injector timing change which was mandated by new emission requirements. To get to the new emmision standards the injector timing was adjusted to get a more complete burn. This resulted in a rougher running engine. It is possible that this engine design and development has reached the tipping point where it can no longer meet emission standards and still be usable as a tractor motor where excess vibration is an issue.

HowStuffWorks "Diesel Engines vs. Gasoline Engines"

 

[leonz]

shake rattle kubota saga continues

If all the motors have the same factory settings? How does this relate to some owners who have not experienced the vibration issue, same machine no vibration?

If it rattles the fuel settings are off and or the machine needs a harmonic balancer period

AGAIN these machines would destroy themselves if they were not internaly balanced with or with out a screwed up fuel setting!




One Kubota Rep in CA is in denial, although He was kind enough to explain that the operator is sitting over a transmission and near an "un-balanced engine".

UH HUH sure! you could not run an unbalanced engine in any configuration and stay in the seat.




In his own words ,"It is not a BMW" It would appear to be somewhat of a random phenomena.

If they do not test bench these engines prior to installs there is no excuse
as they would know what it is doing exactly;


As I mentioned before the engines are run briefly with oil and fuel at the
standard settings prior to shipment as they are not allowed to ship them with fuel or oil in the crankcase.


If the engines were set per the kubota generator fuel settings you could install a PTX exhaust gas purifier and never have to worry about vibration issues.

Where is the matching mark on the injection pump?, is it directly in line with the mark on the crankcase mount?

If it is, you know the fuel setting are the issue and can be correctly set to stop all the problems with the engines "supposed" out of balance issues.

"without using wieght bolted to the machine to attempt to cancel the out of
bad harmonics.

I had the same issue with a GM product that would regularly tear out the serpentine belt and tensioner pulley and finally tore a hole in the hood, ripped out the radiator and then tore out the alternator.

AND the amount of electrical interference and knocking was huge, and I could not use the radio.



I sure feel for the folks with unresolved vibration problems.

Were his eyes starting to water when he said this was an unbalanced engine and you were sitting over a transmission that operates at high speeds of rotation to deliver fluid power as he was looking down to the ground?

If the transmission was not blanced and the turbine was not balanced >>>>>>>>>>>>........................ you would be in big trouble

De Nile is a river in Egpyt, They sell thousands of these engines in other uses so his statement is nothing to consider as credible.


Or as Click and Clack would say;

BOOOOOOOOOOGGGGGGGUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Any indirect injection diesel engine is easier to manage as the amount of fuel is regulated by the injection pumps volume of fuel delivery which is pumped and bypasssed back to tank; saying that if there is no fuel line back to tank

(WHICH THERE SHOULD BE)

from the last fuel injection nozzle back to tank then they readjusted the fuel delivery to almost a trickle and that is where the problem is.

I wish I had opened the hood on the B7800 machine I looked at years ago and I would have spotted this right off.

If there is no heated fuel returning to tank to help heat the fuel in the tank this also adds to the problem.

 

[leonz]

I worked in the noise and vibration field for a US auto company for 26 years and worked on a wide variety of gas and diesel vibration issues. I'd just like to say that with a little instrumentation, any vibration problem can be diagnosed as to cause and possible resolution actions. One may decide that the cost to fix it is prohibitive, but I'd hope that an analysis has been done and would be shared with dealers and customers.

Yes, yes, yes, :thumbsup:

Normal fuel delivery settings, proper fuel return line to tank, and a small catalytic converter sized to the engine = happy campers.

 

[jeepfreak1972]

I wish I had done more research on the B3200. I have had mine a month and it vibrates like crazy. My last tractor was a Deere 2520 and that was smooth. I like my Bota better than the Deere for many reasons but my hands go numb if I run the rpm's up over 2,000. Even at idle stuff is buzzing and rattling on this machine. I'm bummed out. This was going to be the last one for me. A keep her till I'm old tractor. Originally I was going to get a 2920 Kubota but I got bit by the bigger is better bug. I can't go smaller now. I'm already spoiled. And I don't want another Deere.

 

[kuboman]

I wish I had done more research on the B3200. I have had mine a month and it vibrates like crazy. My last tractor was a Deere 2520 and that was smooth. I like my Bota better than the Deere for many reasons but my hands go numb if I run the rpm's up over 2,000. Even at idle stuff is buzzing and rattling on this machine. I'm bummed out. This was going to be the last one for me. A keep her till I'm old tractor. Originally I was going to get a 2920 Kubota but I got bit by the bigger is better bug. I can't go smaller now. I'm already spoiled. And I don't want another Deere.

I understand your annoyance but there are a few things you can do. I think this has all been said before but go after every nut and bolt with a wrench and then make a study of the various things that vibrate and make noise. Isolate all those items, in other words stop them from vibrating. Allot of it is noise but also as every little thing that vibrates just adds to the total vibration package. I did all that with mine and it made a huge difference. Even stopping the noise helps.

 

[ruralruss]

I wish I had done more research on the B3200. I have had mine a month and it vibrates like crazy. My last tractor was a Deere 2520 and that was smooth. I like my Bota better than the Deere for many reasons but my hands go numb if I run the rpm's up over 2,000. Even at idle stuff is buzzing and rattling on this machine. I'm bummed out. This was going to be the last one for me. A keep her till I'm old tractor. Originally I was going to get a 2920 Kubota but I got bit by the bigger is better bug. I can't go smaller now. I'm already spoiled. And I don't want another Deere.

Here are a few things that can help

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...914-vibration-tips-other-assorted-things.html

 

[art]

We have been called enough on this and have had several chances to look at his issue and knowing what was done for this tractor that was or is the brail of the vibration issue.

Not all Kubota''s have an issue with pump timing! It is different timing with the engines mentioned the 7800 and 3200. We have not found this to be an issue yet! Excessive smoke is the first problem to the timing!!!

The rubber under the deck, while on many of the deluxe tractors it's standard equipment. Otherwise it's an option of the owner to install. This is not a warrantee item and on some it helps and on some it doesn't make a difference.

The info here on the timing spec's is not accurate that has been being given!!!!!

What we have found with the tractors we have had in. Some do seem to have more vibration compared to others. Strange part of this is we just had those tractors in for servicing. No complaints of vibration! One of them stating he had a vibration, was the smoothest by far!

It is different for everone as to what they feel and what might really be a problem!

About calling the reps, dealers first lines are the company rep, when we can't get to them because they are working directly with customers it ties up the system. The rep can't do anything until he has been called by a dealer!

It often takes far more time and effort to explain things to people who don't know the complete story, tractors inside and out it actually slows down everyone else as well as takes up time he could be solving more indepth problems. We had people who do have the service manuals in and asking for assistance with setting the pump timing and they don't have the ability to observe where it is on the engine.

I don't mean to slight anyone but your dealer is there to take care of the problems. Sometimes we actually have tractors that the owners which they had a vibration in so at least it might run and they could get there work done!!!!!

We use the service reps to get us up the chain further when needed. When the system starts faultering it holds back everyone. When the company service rep does take the time to address the individual situation then it is normally because the dealer thought enough to help help you!

I have a feeling this might get ugly, and I didn't do this to offend anyone here as there is every level of mechanical ability on this board.

 

[funwithahoe]

I can only post my own experience - My B3200 (25 hours) does start to vibrate some around 2K but really isn't too bad. It does seem that there are multiple "sweet" spots where the vibration is not as bad if you change the RPM's up or down a hundred or so. Quite frankly, I am not sure I would think anything of it unless I read so much about it on here. I usually just adjust the engine RPM. Even a 540 PTO mower still cuts great as low as 2K RPM's and I can't imagine it hurts anything to run it there.

Overall, I am really happy with the B3200 and having come down from an "L" I am constantly amazed at what this little guy will do. I used to get wired up that I could do it faster with a bigger machine but now I look at the whole thing as recreation and relax- If your not a full time farmer aren't we all just doing it for recreation?

It does sound like the issue is very tractor specific but I have to feel badly for Kubota because although i am sure some people have very real problems these forums probably get a lot of people fired up a running into the dealer to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

Nicest part of the B3200 is I can't hear my wife when i am on it!:laughing:

 

[magicheater]

Overall, I am really happy with the B3200 and having come down from an "L" I am constantly amazed at what this little guy will do. I used to get wired up that I could do it faster with a bigger machine.

I share your feelings. I am finding that I can get many things done faster with the little guy. I save the L for the really big jobs which seem to be getting less and less........

 

[funwithahoe]

I share your feelings. I am finding that I can get many things done faster with the little guy. I save the L for the really big jobs which seem to be getting less and less........

Yeah - People (correctly so) look at me like I am crazy when I say there are some things I swear are faster with this smaller tractor but I think it handles better and My old "L" was a shuttle shift and this is a hydro so I never really set the RPM's at 2K and ran it (I think the transmission would have dropped out of the "L" if I did that) so loader work is actually a little faster. Also I think my expectations were low for the B3200 meaning that I thought I was buying a great lawn mower but it continually amazes me that it is a "real" tractor.

I know there are a lot of different opinions about tires but I am anxious to see how well this guy does plowing snow this winter (R4's) - I am going to try it without chains. I bought the front blade after using a scraper blade for the past 6 years and I am excited to be looking the correct direction and to have power angle. Also the scrapers don't "trip" when you hit something frozen up so my poor blade is all beat to heck. The Kubota front blade also has the risers to keep the blade a little off the gravel driveway so I am hoping to save on needing to rake the gravel out of my grass in the spring and needing a new 20 ton load of rock every spring.

I feel badly if some people are have major vibration issues and it sounds like there are some very real cases but that has not been my experience.

Only thing I really don't like and I think it is the same on all these little tractors is the 2500 or so RPM's it need to run the PTO. I woudl rather have larger displacement and let the engine run slower since it sounds like it is hard on the engine to run that fast but I am sure they last 5K hours or more at that RPM.

 

[leonz]

The vibration issues are a basic problem with lower fuel delivery settings to comply with the EPA emmisions regulations and resultant low idle settings.


(this entire mess is solved by installing an exhaust gas purifier)



The engine crank shafts are balanced when machined and that is not the problem (refer to the above)

The engines are properly timed, and test run at the Kubota factory in Japan and they would blow up if there was a design flaw.



The dealers who say the problem is not fixable or typical are wrong as well as the repair utilizing steel plates bolted/cob jobs to the frames of the tractors in question when a simple fuel adjustment increase is all that is needed.

Thses same exact engines are used on other applications AND HAVE NO VIBRATION PROBLEMS.


These are identical engines that run a lot harder on the other applications that they are used in so no worries there, simply because the fuel settings are higher and not requiring fuel delivery reductions for the tier 3-4 emmisions for small tractors using indirect injection fuel delivery systems.



The folks at Foley Industrial Engine (Dr. Diesel to be specific) agree with me saying its is not an engine timing problem/baance issue (being fuel delivery specifically) as they are balanced-BTW he sells a lot of new and rebuilt Kubota engines.

An indirect injection diesel engine will compress and explode/ burn all the fuel that is delivered to each cylinder and the excess is pumped back to tank with the return line to tank.

Any amount of reduced fuel delivery affects the entire engine and EACH cylinders combustion cycle.

 

[Movintgt]

I too have vibration but only at what seems to be one rpm, bump it a little either way and it's gone. The ROPs rattleing used to give it away but I've killed that rattle and now only notice it in the FEL. I like my little tractor. I, like funwithahoe, used to have an L, I do miss the positioning control on the 3PH and the rocker pedal for the HST, but that's about all I miss. This little tractor has more power in a lighter body and can do anything I ask....well it can't push over 8-10 inch trees like the L could but....I also have a chainsaw.

 

[RoyJackson]

The vibration issues are a basic problem with lower fuel delivery settings to comply with the EPA emmisions regulations and resultant low idle settings.

The engine crank shafts are balanced when machined and that is not the problem (refer to the above)

The engines are properly timed, and test run at the Kubota factory in Japan and they would blow up if there was a design flaw.

Thses same exact engines are used on other applications AND HAVE NO VIBRATION PROBLEMS.


These are identical engines that run a lot harder on the other applications that they are used in so no worries there, simply because the fuel settings are higher and not requiring fuel delivery reductions for the tier 3-4 emmisions for small tractors using indirect injection fuel delivery systems.



The folks at Foley Industrial Engine (Dr. Diesel to be specific) agree with me saying its is not an engine timing problem/balance issue (being fuel delivery specifically) as they are balanced-BTW he sells a lot of new and rebuilt Kubota engines.

Here you go...do a little light reading: Balance shaft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Inline 4 cylinder engines are inherently unbalanced so you'll get some vibration. There are ways to get around it, one of which is a balance shaft (which is what Porsche did with the 944 sports car engine).
So, some of the concerns expressed in this thread are due to the nature of the beast. Larger 4's (> 2 liters) are worse then the smaller engines.

 

[funwithahoe]

The vibration issues are a basic problem with lower fuel delivery settings to comply with the EPA emmisions regulations and resultant low idle settings.


(this entire mess is solved by installing an exhaust gas purifier)



The engine crank shafts are balanced when machined and that is not the problem (refer to the above)

The engines are properly timed, and test run at the Kubota factory in Japan and they would blow up if there was a design flaw.



The dealers who say the problem is not fixable or typical are wrong as well as the repair utilizing steel plates bolted/cob jobs to the frames of the tractors in question when a simple fuel adjustment increase is all that is needed.

Thses same exact engines are used on other applications AND HAVE NO VIBRATION PROBLEMS.


These are identical engines that run a lot harder on the other applications that they are used in so no worries there, simply because the fuel settings are higher and not requiring fuel delivery reductions for the tier 3-4 emmisions for small tractors using indirect injection fuel delivery systems.



The folks at Foley Industrial Engine (Dr. Diesel to be specific) agree with me saying its is not an engine timing problem/baance issue (being fuel delivery specifically) as they are balanced-BTW he sells a lot of new and rebuilt Kubota engines.

An indirect injection diesel engine will compress and explode/ burn all the fuel that is delivered to each cylinder and the excess is pumped back to tank with the return line to tank.

Any amount of reduced fuel delivery affects the entire engine and EACH cylinders combustion cycle.

Sounds lili something I would break more than fix if I decided to mess with it - It really isn't bad.

 

[leonz]

Sounds lili something I would break more than fix if I decided to mess with it - It really isn't bad.

No you will not break it.

Things to remember within which your diesel does work to provide energy.


1. The throttle controls the fuel delivery to provide power to do work.

2. The injection pump provides a METERED amount of fuel per revolution of
the crank gear that rotates the injection pump to provide fuel to each
cylinder or one cylinder.

3. The fuel delivery adjustment screw provides a metered amount of fuel
through the fuel rail to the INDIVIDUAL INJECTION NOZZLE which directs
the fuel to the top of the first individual cylinder when it is in the INTAKE
portion of the 4 cycle combustion process. The second and third or fourth
cylinder recieve the fuel the same way per revolution of the injection pump
drive gearing.

4. Any unburned fuel which not pulled in the top of each cylinder combustion
chamber is pumped back to the tank and recirculated when the individual
cylinders fuel inlet port is closed upon the completion of the combustion
portion of the 4 cycle combustion process and as a side benefit and the
fuel is is heated by the engines high temperature created during the
combustion process which reduces gellng at lower temperatures.

5. The engine timing is the same no matter what or it will not work
effectively as diesel fuel must be compressed and then explode to provide
the down force to propel the other cylinders in the drive train or a single
cylinder. The crank lobes are machined and balanced according to the
engine design and number of cylinders which requires the PROPER position
of the cylinder piston per revolution just like a gas engine BUT as Gasline
is combustable it burns much more easily which is what a diesel fueled
engine is unable to do with gasoline to run effectively at a 100 percent
volume of gasoline and diesel fuel cannot be used for fuel in a gasoline
engine because of the diesel fuels actual combustion requirements.

a. A reduced amount of fuel(even a minor reduction) delivered per rotation of
the injection pump will not allow the engine to operate at full power PER
CYLINDER no matter the throttle setting does not allow the entire drive
train to propel the crank shaft to provide full power per revolution.

b. The timing is the same and unchanged BUT the power delivery is what is
affected which creates the excess vibration within the power unit as the
drive train is not allowed to deliver full power per cylinder WHICH reduces
the speed of the cylinder ever so slightly due to the use of diesel fuel and
its required compression and explosion to create energy.


think of your engine as a spring driven clock the less spring tension you have
delivers that much less energy -fuel to power the clock which becomes slower.




I want everyone to succeed and not fail.

 

[jeepfreak1972]

The timing was off 8 degrees on my new 3200. Correcting this reduced the vibration. Not eliminated it but its now at a level that is not, in any way, an issue. The biggest change was the way it starts. No missing, sputtering and belching white smoke on start up. Even when its 10 degrees outside. Glow it for 5 seconds or so and it snaps to life instantly. Well worth looking at if you have a 3200 that acts like it has a "cold cylinder." No more missing until warmed up. Now I'm a happy camper.

 

[leonz]

It figures;

It would never have left the factory in Japan if it was

like that to begin with.


I would love compare engines used in the Japanese

homeland tractors versus the ones mounted here as

far as operation/vibration goes.:thumbsup:

 

[jeepfreak1972]

I wonder if they "dumb them down", so to speak, to make a higher horse engine have less power so they can use them in more than one tractor to save on production cost. For instance, before buying the 3200 I drove the 3300 SUT. Same engine as the 3200 but 33 horse instead of 32. No big cloud of smoke at start up and no missing and sputtering. I don't recall the vibration being bad either. They did not have a 3200 in stock at the time for me to drive. I purchased the 3200 without a test drive because they told me it was the same tractor besides the 1 less horsepower, the mid PTO, which was the deal breaker for me, and cruise. I wanted the mid PTO for a future snow blower. If I did not plan on running a blower I would have gotten the 3300 SUT. The only other thing different on the 3300 is the tires. It comes with huge R-4's that require a step that has been added under the operator platform to aid in mounting / dismounting. I scoured both the 3200 and 3300 specs and these things mentioned above are the only differences I could find.

Steve